Isn't the silence strange?

Z

Zander

Moderator
Why no outrage, feigned or otherwise, for the proposal of Sen. Bob Graham [D-FL], chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, to institute a domestic intelligence force to spy on American citizens?

Where's the ACLU? Where are the Dubya-bashers? Where are the "libertarians" and "progressives" on TFL who decry every step of the Bush Administration as a threat to civil liberties? Where are the "defenders" of the Constitution?

Why the silence?!?

Ah...of course! Graham is a Democrat! How silly of us not to notice that the abrogation of Rights is acceptable if the Democrat elitists propose it.

Let the sophistry begin...
 
W

WyldOne

New member
Since I'm with my mom for the time being, I'm not paying attention to the news or any world events whatsoever.

This being the case, could you please provide more information about this piece of legislation? Thanks. :)
 
J

Justin

New member
Somewhere between my obsessive flicking of the remote between CNN, MSNBC, and FOX News, I must have missed the story on this.

As for others not speaking up, well, criticising a democrat for new proposal is kinda redundant.

After all, the Democratic Party is the evil party, everyone knows that. ;)
 
S

SamH

New member
More info is needed.

But in the meantime....
Isn't the FBI responsible for the counter-intelligence role?

Nearly every country has a domestic intelligence service, although their powers and jurisdiction varies widely between countries.
Domestic intelligence agencies undertake the important task of keeping track of foreign spies, agents, "agents of influence", domestic terrorist cells, and politically subversive groups.

The real matter is how much accountability they will have, the provision of safeguards against improper conduct, and whether domestic intelligence-gathering cannot be adequately provided by an existing service.
 
C

Christopher II

New member
One, this is the first I have heard of such a proposal. No particular surprise, with all the swill that's been coming out on the Legislative branch since 9/11. This would be just another nugget of the pile.

Two, since the FBI has been spying on the American people for years and years, in violation of both aplicable laws and the Constitution, a proposal to give another agency legal sanction to do the same just doesn't have the sense of immiedacy that, say, new gun control laws, airport security shenanigans, or secret trials do.

Three, if the GOP is getting more than it's fair share of flak, well, boo hoo. They should know better.

- Chris
 
H

hammer4nc

Moderator
Though I haven't followed progress on this, wasn't this proposal part of the initial idea for the dept. of Homeland Security? Unless I'm mistaken, it degenerated into a turf battle, when existing agencies objected to losing personnel and budget dollars. Has there been a final decision made?
 
N

No4Mk1

New member
Not sure if this is what is being referenced, but here is some information on the "Citizen Corps" which looks a bit scary to me.... and the big smiling mug on the home-page isn't a Democrat....
 
S

Sodbuster

New member
I believe the Fox News story about Sen. Graham aired on Friday, Aug. 29. I watched it, and was sickened by it. He is an admirer of British MI5, and thinks the US should adopt an agency similar to them, whose purpose would be domestic surveillance. Upon reflection, I decided it was no more than a rubber-stamp approval for what NSA currently does, although that wasn't mentioned by the reporter. Another over-reaction, another way to tax and spend, and another way to control. The outrage is pent up and will be released all at once, IMO.
 
Z

Zander

Moderator
That was so far beneath you... -- Tamara
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Oh, don't be silly. At least seven people are now aware of the problem that weren't before...eight if we count you. ;)

So...do you have a comment or not? I guess not.

This should make for an interesting discussion...it'll be fun to cross-reference the "players" here with their efforts in other threads.

Sodbuster...

Yes, that's the proposal.

And this fool heads the Senate's intelligence committee because he's a Democrat. Let's keep that in mind come Nov. 5th.
 
Z

Zander

Moderator
So you think, say, Orrin Hatch would be a better choice?
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That would depend in good measure on whether or not Hatch has called for a domestic intelligence service.

Has he?

[see, Tamara...it didn't take long to make my point :cool: ]

Anybody interested in actually discussing the ramifications of having the fed.gov run an intelligence system designed to spy on American citizens in America?
 
P

pax

New member
Anybody interested in actually discussing the ramifications of having the fed.gov run an intelligence system designed to spy on American citizens in America?
Click to expand...

Naww, taking potshots at each other is ever so much more fun than actually discussing anything.

Besides, talking about it is just too dang depressing. Keeping our freedom is such a radically unpopular concept.

And the dominoes keep falling... :(

pax

Where do you stand on Bill of Rights enforcement?
 
Z

Zander

Moderator
Besides, talking about it is just too dang depressing.
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Can't really say. But isn't it wierd that a proposal by the chairman of one of the Senate's most powerful committees can propose a federal organization to spy on us and very few seem willing to report it? [thanks to FoxNews for informing us]

NY Times...well, no, nothing there;
Washington Post...er, nope;
LA Times...hmmm, see NY Times above;
CNN...nah, obviously not newsworthy, even though Judy Woodruff interviewed Graham just last Thursday;
The TomDanPeter Show on the nightly news...Bob who?;
Sunday morning news shows...not a hint.

If we really want to examine this proposal, we'd best pretend that AG Ashcroft wants to push it.

Then we'd get howls so loud that they'd hear them in Tierra del Fuego.

Most odd...
 
C

Christopher II

New member
Zander, come on. You can't pretend that the GOP has been particularly interested in protecting our freedom. As I said before, if the republicans are getting picked on, tough. Maybe if enough people take them to task for supporting intrusive, pro-state, anti-freedom legislation, they'll stop doing it.

In point of fact, Orrin Hatch has not called for a seperate domestic intelligence service. He simply voted for (and helped draft) the legislation that gives the FBI broader domestic intel-gathering powers. Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

What we have now is true bipartisanship. Democrats and Republicans, united against the common enemy. Too bad that enemy is individual liberty.

But hey, I'm all about debating the myriad aspects of domestic intelligence-gathering. I flatter myself that I know a bit about the subject. Ask away; I think we can dispose of the, "It's a bad thing..." statement up front.

- Chris
 
Z

Zander

Moderator
You can't pretend that the GOP has been particularly interested in protecting our freedom.
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Haven't said that.

In point of fact, Orrin Hatch has not called for a seperate domestic intelligence service.
Click to expand...
But Graham has...and he happens to be the current chairman.

He simply voted for (and helped draft) the legislation that gives the FBI broader domestic intel-gathering powers. Six of one, half-dozen of the other.
Click to expand...
You are, of course, familiar with The USA Patriot Act. Who was the primary sponsor in the Senate?

What we have now is true bipartisanship. Democrats and Republicans, united against the common enemy. Too bad that enemy is individual liberty.
Click to expand...
Then your contention is that there is no practical difference between the parties?

Why the difference in attention, or inattention as I claim, to Graham's proposal to establish a domestic intelligence service?

If it's a bad idea...and it's a terrible idea...why the reluctance to criticize it? You'd have no compunction whatsoever condemning it if Orrin Hatch had proposed it, would you?

The fact remains that we'll be voting for control of the Senate come Nov. 5th. Planning on exercising your franchise or just staying home to watch the returns?
 
M

Malone LaVeigh

New member
Darn it, Comrades, that crafty Zander has caught us again! Our plot to discredit the capitalist running-dog lackeys in the only true Amerikan party while our patriotic working-class co-conspirators in the fellow-traveler corps seize power has been discovered! Comrade Graham, with the aid of our agents in the media almost succeeded this time.

Curses, foiled again!
 
T

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Zander,

NY Times...well, no, nothing there;
Washington Post...er, nope;
LA Times...hmmm, see NY Times above;
CNN...nah, obviously not newsworthy, even though Judy Woodruff interviewed Graham just last Thursday;
The TomDanPeter Show on the nightly news...Bob who?;
Sunday morning news shows...not a hint.
Click to expand...

Oh, oh, oohhh; now it's the news networks that aren't reporting it, rather than the slavering pack of libertarian commie-symps here on TFL.

You're backpedaling so fast, you're in danger of throwing a chain. :rolleyes:
 
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