IS TRAINING OF ANY USE - PART 3

[jeffelkins]

This is a great topic.

As I mentioned, I'll be taking my first professional training next weekend. I'll be sure to keep notes and post back.

I just can't imagine that lessons from someone who's 'been there, done that' won't be of any value.

 

[jeffelkins]

OK.Joe: "It seems to me, most folks would be better served using hand grenades than attending shooting schools."

Joe, you're here selling a product. I won't comment on it's worth, it may be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But that does indicate a bias.

 

[okjoe]

Yes and NO. All the other trainers making
comments here sell a product.

P&S is a free method of shooting. It
takes little if any training. It is a
natural and instinctive method of
aiming and shooting fast, acurately,
and instinctively. Any bozo can do it.

It is not Point Shooting (point and blast
or spray and pray).

It is not sighted shooting, flash shooting,
or the like (none of which are used in
gunfights per the 900 + videos of gunfights
reviewed by a training expert which I am
not).

To Point & Shoot you put your index finger
along the side of the gun, point it at the
target, and pull the trigger with your middle
finger or left index finger.

It worked back in 1954 when I used it to
qualify with a greese gun. I was told to
do that by an old sargeant when shooting
from the hip. Worked then, still does.

The advantage is that you don't have to
think when using it.

You can point accurately without thinking.
It just happens.

So you can shoot accurately as well without
thinking. You just point and pull the
trigger. It just happens.

There is no need to engage your brain.
It can leave you free to direct your
actions to defeat the threat.

Try it at your own risk and expense.

For more info visit my web page: http://members.aol.com./okjoe/ps.htm

I have patented and am in the process of
marketing what I call a P&S Index Finger
Rest. It is not needed to use the P&S
method of shooting, but it can help anyone
use the method more surely than not, and
at night or day, or under all conditions.

It automatically positions your finger
along side the gun, keeps your finger
away from the slide, helps support the
gun, and also keeps your finger properly
in place when shooting rapidly multiple
times.

It can help equalize the difference between
the expert and the non expert, and improve
the ability of one average shooter over
another.

Given that 4 out of every five bullets
let loose in a gunfight miss, I would
take and use all the help I could get.

More info on them is on my web page.
You can make one for your test very
easily. 4 inch segments of 3/4 inch
corner shaped plastic molding and 3M
double sided tape works just fine.
Try it at your own risk and expense,
and don't make any more than you need
for your test.

To get one added to a gun on a permanent
basis, you will have to see a gunsmith
or a gun or grip maker.

Keep in mind that those who poo poo
P&S haven't tried it.

Grip and gun makers have so far said
they have bigger fish to fry, but they
will come around one of these days.

I am retired and doing OK, so it doesn't
matter if anyone uses them or not. They
would save lives and reduce accidental
shootings. One would think that would
matter to gun folk in that they make
guns more deadly and also safer to use.

Edited 9:37 and 9:52 PST


[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited March 06, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited March 06, 2000).]

 

[kevlar4me]

I just requalified on Saturday and a chap was in class who had been out since 1993.
He still had sharp skills and as for myself I had a 100% hit rate in low light and the dark. Almost like riding a velocipede. You don't forget much if you are trained in the most simple methods.
The chap who came back after 7 years was an intended victim of a robbery two years ago as he left a gun store and had an interesting tale to tell and he brought the police report with him. He didn't have to shoot thanks to the training he recieved and used. But he did admit to some serious errors. I guess we can never do it perfect.
I'm going back for another class today. I always learn something new.

 

[Matt VDW]

Kevlar4me, could you please describe for us the shooting technique you learned from Plus P?

 

[okjoe]

Hi jeffelkins,

I reread you entry again today. I don't mean to disparage training or trainers, only trainers or training programs that look only within rather than both ways. They refuse to take their heads out of the sand and look around and see if the world has changed in over 100 years. Guns and shooting methods are just about the same, but now we have TV and it shows things are not as "one" thinks they were or are in cq situations.

Training students to use deadly force techniques that are shown not to be used, is akin to negligence of some kind in that it can lead to the students or others death in a cq situation.

Someone should come up with something that works and soon or cops will be mandated to do what the cops do down in Mexico, and that is carry carbines until a better shooting method is found.

If you carry that one step farther, you could also temporarily ban handguns for concealed carry and home self defense for the same reason, ie. current training methods are not used in gunfights and 4 out of 5 bullets shot in armed encounters miss and could hit and kill comeone else.

Car cams are going to be used everywhere soon so you can expect the pressure to ban guns, to build, not diminish.

If P&S proves out to be good in real time cq situations, improving hit effectiveness from 1 out of 5 to say 4 out of 5, that should make it a clear choice for training and application. If I was a shooter, I would use it now because I know it works and other methods don't. I would do no worse and probably much better.

It worked for Jack Ruby when he killed Oswald. Someone posted that pic up in a prior thread. So there you have it, photographic proof that P&S can be used and is effective in a cq situation.


[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited March 06, 2000).]

 

[SKN]

I'm not convinced that the photo of the Oswald homicide by Jack Ruby is a validation of the P&S technique. Oswald was walking toward Ruby at a shallow oblique angle, trapped between two clearly identifiable Texas lawmen and handcuffed, albeit in front. I would venture to say that, other than the anxiety of being arrested or shot by LE, whatever stress/"fright gene" was present could not have been comparable to an engagement with an armed and firing adversary.

 

[mooser]

pluspinc, i asked you in a previous post in the general discussion forum:

if what we as law enforcement trainers are teaching isn't and hasn't been working, then what do you specifically know that does?
i never saw a specific answer from you.

 

[Tackleberry]

Well gents, just dropped in for a peek.

Regardless the training style ..... (don't want to get into tahat pool) ...... one thing has been proven to variable degrees,albeit.

"One doesn't rise to the occaion .... one defaults to they level of training."

For a graphic picture of the lack of training or forthought, Homer Simpson when s+&* hits the fan.

Stay Safe, Fight As You Train ** Train as You Fight

Tack

------------------
Be Safe, Be Trained

Life is tough...it's alot tougher if you don't know how to shoot.

 

[okjoe]

I have sent 100's, how about thousands of letters out on P&S to police agencies and others. For my efforts which entails personally visiting web sites, I have been verbaly beaten soundly about the head and shoulder's by a group of very determined folks. Here is info on that which can be found on my web page: http://members.aol.com/okjoe/ps.htm

Some trainers and gun experts are doubtful about P&S. They think current training methods work OK as is, and they also think that the 100 year old pistol design in use today, and the 150 year old revolver design in use today, should be left alone.

They say that the key to success is practice, practice, practice. Some say that It's not the gun, it's the person holding it!

Some have said I must be crazy, but none of them have said that they have tried P&S or a P&S index finger rest and found that it doesn't work.

Most people don't respond, but several who have said that it does work. So don't rely on what I say. See the P&S Comments on my web page.

Some doubters also say the Police do not train enough, and that Police shooting proficiency is poor. Their comments are on my web page too.

THE RESPONSE:

First, there never has been and there never will be enough time or money for training. That is reality. What needs to be done, is for those who are in charge, the Chiefs, Senior Officers, the experts and trainers, to deal with that training reality and come up with real solutions that can not only be taught, but that will work in real time situations as verified by films.

Gun makers have a responsibility too because they make the guns.

The more I hear what I consider to be self serving statements like practice, practice, practice, the more I think if they really are true, then handguns are too dangerous to be in the hands of anyone who does not practice and who isn't currently qualified as an expert combat shooter. In short, they should be banned from allmost all of the population including cops.

I do not see gun makers advertising handguns as being next to if not useless, unless you practice, practice, practice. It is the gun experts and trainers that are making the case.

If training is the key to success in gunfights, why the move to big guns with more ammo?

Also, it training is the key, how come in the 150 years since the revolver design was patented, trainers haven't come up with a training program that teaches Police how to shoot in close quarters shooting situations that works?

Police need guns that shoot good rather than guns that look good. They need guns that work with their instincts in instinctive situations.

Some responders say using the middle finger to shoot with is a bad idea, and some say that it works good.

What I have not seen nor do I believe happens, is that shooters in close combat situations, keep their index fingers independant and free and squeeze off shots while they are holding up a weighty gun with thumb and middle finger, shooting multiple times, and absorbing recoil at the same
time some perp is pumping lead at them.

I have seen guns held with two hands. That technique appears to be learnable and useable, as it is used in actual gunfights as shown by gunfight films. However does it inhibit shooter flexibility and mobility, and can it be dangerous to others as the shooter moves around other Officers?

My only point is that, your average Police Officer needs a practical means of directing fire in high stress close quarters shooting conditions.

Current gun designs and training, no matter how well intended, just aren't getting the job done. Police casualty rates support this.

And what's true for the Police is vastly more true for the anxious home defender who may have cause to use a gun they bought with the expectation that it could be used to keep them safe in a self defense situation.

A P&S index finger rest because it provides a sure and practical means for shooting rapidly and accurately, provides increased situational control. As such, it limits the possibility of a shoot first and asking questions later situation that can have tragic consequences.

And if it comes to shooting, a P&S index finger rest provides a simple, ready, and reliable means for fast, automatic, and accurate aiming. It makes a gun more deadly, and can give you the advantage at day or night, and under conditions when sights and sighting methods are not used or can't be used.

Last edited 03/08 6:36 am PST


[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited March 08, 2000).]

 

[mooser]

well here is what i believe. i'm a trainer, but don't believe i'm an expert. i believe that i'm only a student of life.

i train all my students, leo's-miitary-public
and security, in fundamentals first.
one should know how their weapon works and how to maintain it. one must have the fundamentals of stance, clearing leather, presenting the weapon, trigger press, recovery, how to fire it in single and multiple round volleys, how to use the sights, how to hit the target, reloading, dealing with malfunctions, use of cover and concealment, target identification, threat accessment, reholstering, weapon retention.

once one has and understanding of fundamentals then i step things up a bit as far as speed, shooting on the move, shooting from multiple positions including how to deal with stairwells, doorways, vehicles, etc.
then we move into team/tandem tactics.

i teach all my students that one should have an understanding of any laws pertaining to firearms, use of force, and use of deadly force.

i do use fats, gamma, simunitions, and other types of training tools. i am a firm believer that these are great training tools, it is all in how you use them. you can have a student just shoot through the scenario's for fun, or if you are a good instructor use them to their full advantage. the gamma system is a video on a screen that you shoot live ammo at. we custom tape re-enacted situations that our officers have encountered on the street. one must make decisions on what they see, back drop, wittnesses, subject actions, and your response actions, whether it be a deadly force or other type of force. then at the end of the scenario have the student verbally justify what they observed, what their actions of response were, and why they did what they did. one must be able to justify verbally and in written format in real life if a force situation is encountered. i been working as a leo for 15yrs. i have trained many, and i have seen officers do under stress exactly as they were trained. i have seen officers do what they haven't been trained also. there is no textbook incident on the street, and no two incidents are identical. we must prepare those that we teach the best that we can, including fundamentals, tactics, and how to survive not only on the street but in the aftermath of the legal system as well.
i always tell my students to think of training and techniques as tools, and to put as many tools in their toolbox as they can, should the time come they might just have the right tool for the job.

 

[fastforty]

Amen, mooser.

------------------
The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.