Is it true that the Mossad carry 22cal semi autos?

[vito]

I read that agents of Israel's Mossad carry 22 caliber semi-auto pistols and was surprised, if this is true, that they rely on this small round. Most readers of this and other gun forums get caught up in argueing if .40's or 357 mags are enough or if only 45 acp will do, which might seem a foolish discussion if in fact this elite group of fighters really think a 22 is enough firepower.

 

[natman]

It's plenty if you can walk up behind your target and shoot him in the back of the head. Not so great otherwise.

Why don't you trot out slaughtering beef next?

A 22 isn't adequate for GENERAL self defense use, no matter what rationales you cook up to try and justify it. Period.

 

[vito]

I just posed the question. I would never personally rely on anything less than 380 auto or 38+p.

 

[mrgoodwrench76]

Ever been shot with a .22? I can attest that it stopped me dead in my tracks and nearly took my life. Personally, I believe any caliber you can shoot accurately is 'enough'. If you can wad em up with a .45ACP or .357SIG then by all means carry it, trust your life to it. Unfortunately, not everyone (my wife) can handle the recoil of larger calibers. Depending on anything that you cant hit your target with is foolish. Thinking that a .22lr wont stop a bad guy is even more FOOLISH!
To the OP, where did you read this information? Can you post a link?

 

[KyJim]

I think Natman hit the nail on the head, even if he is a bit emphatic. The .22 pistol as a "defense" gun has two uses. The first is for people with extreme recoil sensitivity who need a small pistol. Even then, the .25 acp is better. The second is for assassins who can do head shots at close range with a suppressor on the gun. That's why some of the Mossad used them.

 

[mrgoodwrench76]

Again, where is this Mossad information coming from? All the references I can find say they carry .25 cal pistols, not .22's.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

...which might seem a foolish discussion if in fact this elite group of fighters really think a 22 is enough firepower.

The Mossad carry .22s just like the Navy Seals do. What does that mean? It is A tool sometimes employed for specific circumstances - nothing more and nothing less.

I do get a bewildered kick out of the fascination of mystique of the Mossad and Israelis in general, however. There seems to be an underlying them that if they do it, it must be good. The classic example is "Israili carry" where pistols are carried without a round in the chamber and they train to draw and rack the slide during the draw and firing quickly and accurately. Of course the problem with the method is that the draw and rack reqires both hands and in a fighting situation, you may not have access to both and so the method has been dropped, though the mystique of continues.

Ever been shot with a .22? I can attest that it stopped me dead in my tracks and nearly took my life.

Sorry for your injuries. Yes, a .22 lr is considered a lethal weapon and it can do a lot of damage, but as paramedics and doctors have posted on the issue, you get a lot more folks walking in the ER on their own power after being shot with a .22 lr than with you with bigger calibers. Just because some people are stopped with it does not mean it is a good self defense round that can be counted on to stop a bad guy. Heck, the mere sight of a potential victim pointing a gun at a bad guy is usually enough to stop the bad guy from pressing on an attack, but it sure as heck isn't what should be counted on to happen.

Thinking that a .22lr wont stop a bad guy is even more FOOLISH!

No, thinking a .22 won't stop a bad guy is prudent. Thinking a .22 won't stop you is FOOLISH.

To the OP, where did you read this information? Can you post a link?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mossad+.22+pistol

 

[brickeyee]

Ever been shot with a .22?

Actually. I have.

From a rifle at about 3 feet.

It entered my outer right thigh and exited the inner edge of the same thigh.

I did not realize I had actually been shot till I saw some blood.

It felt no worse than being struck by a baseball on the pitchers mound from a hit.

It did about the same amount of damage also, a really nasty bruise being most of it.

 

[Mike Irwin]

If you know where to do it, you can stick a knife in your thigh to about an inch and not feel it.

The upper legs are not really well laced with nerves.

A gentleman I knew was shot in the elbow with a .22 about 35 years ago.

According to him, the round largely destroyed the bony process on the elbow and caused significant trauma to the end of the bone in the upper arm.

He said the pain was instant, incredible, and completely debilitating, and resulted in several major surgeries and long-term rehabilitation to get about 70% of his motion back.

When I worked with him he still couldn't extend his arm fully.

Anyone who poo poohs the seemingly lowly .22 Long Rifle does so at his own peril.

 

[SfcMac]

During my career I spent some time with Pshyops In that time I had the rare chance to work with the Agency, and I got to meet an officer of MI5. Almost all Covert agencies carry the 22 auto. It's small, easy to conceal, and yeah if you have to take someone out That's the right tool for the job. Take note that when Major Case units of PDs around the country, particularly Organized crime will more often find that is what was used for a gangland execution.

 

[woodguru]

Anyone who has the ability to shoot dime groups accurately under pressure can feel confidence in a .22. I am looking to buy a Berretta model 87 and would feel almost as comfortable with that as I would my model 86 .380.

People can argue what's enough all they want it's enough for me and that's all that matters.

The difference is also in the size and accuracy of the gun, I'd feel no more comfortable with a teeny tiny .22 than I would a tiny .32, now make it a better sized Walther and it's different.

It has to be a bigger, flawlessly reliable, and superbly accurate gun and it changes the equation.

I border carried a 5 inch S&W model 41 .22 in some truly hairy situations. Big and hard to conceal but it was the caliber I wanted for the situations. Where I didn't need lots of bullets it was a Colt 6 inch Diamondback even though I had Pythons in three sizes, the .22 was the gun for the job at hand.

I know it's generally an argument of what's best for most but there are too many wanting to put a definitive ".22 won't do the job" when there are many people who are very comfortable with it.

I've got an example of where I was in a deadly situation with a .22 but I'll do another topic titled ".22 does the job" so as not to derail this one.

 

[FrankenMauser]

If you know where to do it, you can stick a knife in your thigh to about an inch and not feel it.

The upper legs are not really well laced with nerves.

I have a scar on my lower right thigh, about 1 1/8" long by 1/8" wide, that went a little over an inch deep. It never hurt. The only reason I knew I was injured, was because I was the idiot that stabbed myself (a stupid teenage accident, not intentional).

The really freaky thing was the lack of blood. Deep in the cut, in the muscle tissue, there was a tiny amount of seepage; but once I closed the wound, there wasn't even a hint of blood. During the healing process, it itched occasionally, but never hurt. It's a very odd thing.

The .22 pistol as a "defense" gun has two uses. The first is for people with extreme recoil sensitivity who need a small pistol. Even then, the .25 acp is better.

.25 Auto vs .22 LR has been debated nearly as much as 9mm vs .45 Auto.
For recoil sensitive persons, the .25 Auto might be arguably better. However, there have been many articles and published papers cited in the .25 vs .22 debates, that often give the .22 LR the edge in ballistics and terminal performance.

 

[jonnyc]

I lived in Israel, also met some "guys" who did some "stuff". I've never seen or heard of any Israeli ever using a .25 for anything. May have happened, but it sure ain't standard. Don't know where that info came from.
For starters, the Mossad has no "standard issue" anything, tools are used from where and when you can get them. The source of the ".22 as issue" myth is actually interesting. I got this info from the old El Al security guys I did my first pistol training with. El Al, Israel's national airline, has had skymarshalls since the mid-1960s. To avoid shooting through airplane skins, not to mention those of other passengers, they used Beretta Mod.70 .22 pistols. These same pistols were now available in any city where El Al had an office. If someone needed a pistol for something, that now became the easiest source. I'm sure it was not a common practice, as then anytime someone got shot in the head with a .22 the police would think they were all done by the same people, not something an intelligence organization really wants.
BTW, those El Al guys were blazingly fast using Hi-Powers and the "Israeli Method". And there are a few one-handed techniques that the method includes.

 

[tet4]

Intelligence orgs use 22 suppressed handguns for assassination for all the reasons that make it a great fit. BTW, the Israeli army uses 22 rifles (suppressed) to eliminate dogs and other animals before a surprise raid. They've been doing this for a long time. But, I don't think you are going to find a single Israeli soldier that will storm a house with a 22 rifle or handgun.

If you think a 22 is a good defensive caliber, then you need to re-evaluate what defense actually is. 22s are lethal if placed in the correct spot, but the difference between shooting a guy and incapacitating him NOW or in 30 minutes when he bleeds out is the difference between living and dying for you.

I've just been reading Jim Cirillo's biography book. After his time on the stake out squad, he came to the conclusion that even 00 buck isn't the magical round that everyone makes it out to be. He's also not a believer in one shot stops it seems like. He's been in more street gun fights than anyone on this board will ever be in, and he wasn't doing it with 22s.

 

[Ballenxj]

However, there have been many articles and published papers cited in the .25 vs .22 debates, that often give the .22 LR the edge in ballistics and terminal performance.

The articles I have read agree with the one's you read. That and I have done penetration testing of them both in the field. My impression was that the .22 seemed to hit harder, and penetrated deeper than the .25. I don't have the exact figures on this as it has been many years since.
The main problem the .22 had was finding a small pistol that digested the .22's reliably. I've owned Beretta's back then that were "very" reliable in .22. OTOH, there were plenty of cheap weapons chambered for .22 that were not so reliable.
Ruger's pistol was also reliable, but much larger.
If you can find a pistol in .22 that is reliable, then that is the way to go over a .25 imo. Of course a revolver would work well in any case, when speaking about reliability.
As a bonus, .22's are way cheaper to shoot, so practice was more affordable.
-Bruce

 

[armoredman]

The only place I saw that stated Mossad carried .22s was that book on the execution of the terrorists that killed the Israeli athletes in Munich. That book was very likely heavily fictionalized, and stated that they carried Berretta 22 SHORTS, with the cartridge downloaded to below the speed of sound to eliminate the crack.
I would have to agree, an intelligence agency would utilize firearms as tool, select the one for the job, usually with deniability as a factor, i.e., local produced equipment. I have been told the vast majority of intelligence agents are normally unarmed.

 

[jonnyc]

The movie "Munich" was a highly fictionalized account based on a book from a widely discredited source. I wouldn't derive too much firearms history from it.

 

[Tom Servo]

If you know where to do it, you can stick a knife in your thigh to about an inch and not feel it.

Maybe you can help me, but I'm not having any luck finding that spot. I'm also feeling a bit light-headed and...whew...

Munich was based on a book called Vengeance, which purports to be a true story of the events following the Munich killings. IIRC, .22 pistols were used because they were relatively quiet, easily concealed, and most importantly, you could easily find.22 ammunition in Europe without raising too many eyebrows.

As a self-defense loading, I worry about the reliability of rimfire ignition.

I've just been reading Jim Cirillo's biography book. After his time on the stake out squad, he came to the conclusion that even 00 buck isn't the magical round that everyone makes it out to be.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Cirillo a few years ago. Someone asked him what his ideal carry load would be, and he responded, "I don't know...I guess a .44 Magnum split wadcutter."

His subsequent remarks really cut to the core of the one-size-fits-all debate in that he really looked for the most effective tool for the job at hand, but never placed too much faith in any of them.

 

[Shadi Khalil]

I do get a bewildered kick out of the fascination of mystique of the Mossad and Israelis in general, however. There seems to be an underlying them that if they do it, it must be good. The classic example is "Israili carry" where pistols are carried without a round in the chamber and they train to draw and rack the slide during the draw and firing quickly and accurately. Of course the problem with the method is that the draw and rack reqires both hands and in a fighting situation, you may not have access to both and so the method has been dropped, though the mystique of continues.

You took the words right out of my head.

 

[Terry A]

I highly doubt that the .22 is their primary duty weapon. More likely, when they are on a specific mission to eliminate a specific target, firing a .22 up close into someones head will draw lots less attention than shooting the same person with a .45 or 9mm. I would think the less noise they make, the better chance they have to "get out of dodge" with less chance of getting caught. A couple of .22LR's to the back of the head is lethal.

As with others here, I'm just guessing, as we have no first hand knowledge.