Is "compact" becoming the new service gun size?

[simonrichter]

It occurs to me that more and more militaries and agencies that are updating their service sidearm are switching to a compact size platform as the new standard (e g. Marines, Coast Guard...). Does anybody know if this is a consistent development and what might be the rationale behind this trend?

 

[Jim Watson]

As Jeff Cooper said of the then-new P7: If you are stuck with a 9mm, it should be the neatest and handiest available.

 

[Siggy-06]

A lot of police officers in my area carry Glock 19s. Some departments let you select from a list of duty pistols, some get issued all the same ones. If I were in law enforcement, I wouldn’t feel under-gunned by having a compact that holds just 2 less rounds and a slightly shorter slide. Now with the military where concealment and comfort aren’t really factored in(its all about $$$), I’d say compact or fullsize doesn’t matter. I bought a bought a Beretta after my time in the Navy because I actually like the M9.

 

[UncleEd]

"Compact" might be a bit misleading.

I think "mid-sized" might be better, something
between "full" and "compact."

Examples are Colt Commander sized, Beretta'
Centurion, Glock 19.

 

[BarryLee]

Also, consider that the larger guns may not be as versatile from an ergonomic standpoint as some hands are smaller than others.

 

[TunnelRat]

The terminology here all gets a bit tricky. You mention the US Marines and Coast Guard so I’m guessing you mean the SIG M18. That pistol has a full-size grip but a 4” barrel, as opposed to the 4.7” barrel of the M17. To me this is different than say a Glock 19, which I would call a compact or mid-size pistol. This is essentially a Glock 19X size wise.

For the rationale, one argument I’ve heard is that the shorter barrel in a holster designed for it has less of a tendency to push up on a duty rig when seated in a vehicle. Of course if you have a weapon light mounted this becomes a moot point. I recently purchased a SIG AXG and have only shot it once, but the full length grip and 4” barrel has an interesting shooting dynamic that I really like.


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[Aguila Blanca]

We're drifting off the topic. The question is about military and government agencies shifting to smaller pistols as service weapons.

 

[Forte S+W]

No, smaller/lighter is strictly a civilian concealed carry trend. For servicemen a bigger gun with higher capacity, a longer sight radius, and more weight to help tame recoil will always be a benefit.
Might individual soldiers/police prefer to carry something smaller/lighter? Absolutely, but they will always be issued bigger guns for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[TunnelRat]

Is "compact" becoming the new service gun size?

For servicemen a bigger gun with higher capacity, a longer sight radius, and more weight to help tame recoil will always be a benefit.

Yet the US Marines, Navy, and Air Force all adopted the M18 and not the M17 (as best as I can tell).



https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-buying-60000-of-army-m18-modular-handgun-system-sidearm-2018-3

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/03/30/air-force-follows-navy-adopting-new-army-sidearm.html

https://www.militarytimes.com/off-d...us-marine-corps-adopts-m18-sig-sauer-handgun/



Looks like the Coast Guard was originally going to go with the M18, but then changed to Glock 19 Gen5 MOS:

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/coast-guard-glock-pistol-contract/

 

[DarwinRTGparts]

Yet the US Marines, Navy, and Air Force all adopted the M18 and not the M17 (as best as I can tell).

https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-buying-60000-of-army-m18-modular-handgun-system-sidearm-2018-3
https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/03/30/air-force-follows-navy-adopting-new-army-sidearm.html
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/2019/06/27/us-marine-corps-adopts-m18-sig-sauer-handgun/

Looks like the Coast Guard was originally going to go with the M18, but then changed to Glock 19 Gen5 MOS:
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/coast-guard-glock-pistol-contract/

While I am not exactly sure why the services were split between the M17 and M18, both of those handguns are pretty well controlled recoil wise. I suppose that technically the M18 is lighter and swings more quickly from target to target, but I can't imagine there is a huge difference either way. I'm a "buy both" kind of guy.

 

[bamaranger]

pistol "sizes"

My former outfit, the USNPS, went that way, at least partially, almost 20 years ago. SIG was the authorized manufacturer, and everybody got a P228 to start (prior that, it was a mix of 'Smith K and L revolvers). Once the transition had occurred, and the SIGs were universal, there were choices available for both field and trainees. The P229 .40 had hit the scene and it was an option, as well as the P226 in both .40 and 9mm, and the P220 in .45. One could also simply stay with the P228/9mm. Sounds complex, but it came off well. Their were about 1200 or so sworn rangers at the time, nationwide......I think.

About half of the gang, as near as I could tell, went with the P229/.40. Of the remaining half, perhaps one quarter, selected the P220/.45. The remaining 25% kept the P228. These are just estimates, and do not account for the occassional P226/9mm or P226/.40 when it became available, but neither of the latter pair seemed as popular as their mid-size brethren. I was a P220/.45 guy.

All that is in the past. The new issue pistol for all is the modular/poly SIG 320. One more reason to have retired when I did.

 

[jmr40]

The current official military service pistols are the M17 and M18. The M17 has a 4.5" barrel and a full size grip holding 17 rounds. Roughly the same size and capacity as a Glock 17.

But the "compact" M18 only has a 1/2" shorter barrel, yet retains the same grip size holding 17 rounds. Unlike the Glock 19 Compact which has a shorter grip holding 15 rounds.

I'm fairly certain this is to standardize on magazines. Of course longer mags would always fit in smaller guns, but not the reverse.

Glocks answer, and the pistol sent to the military for evaluation was the G19X. Which is basically a G17 frame and grip holding 17 rounds mated to a shorter G19 slide and barrel.

I guess it wouldn't be completely accurate to say the military is using a "compact" pistol in the M18. It is more of a hybrid.

With LE I'm not seeing that trend. Pretty much all cops in my part of the world carry full size G17's in 9mm or G22's in 40 S&W. Detectives and other plain clothes officers may well be carrying something else, but it isn't in plain sight so I can't say for sure.

The Sheriff doesn't have to follow the same rules as everyone else. He has an assortment of personal pistols and I've seen him carry several different guns on various occasions.

 

[Forte S+W]

Yet the US Marines, Navy, and Air Force all adopted the M18 and not the M17 (as best as I can tell).

The Airforce has historically carried smaller arms up until more recent decades, and the Navy/Marines have been carrying mostly smaller sidearms since the mid 1980s. (The P226, the Colt CQB, the G19, etc...)
Also, it makes perfect sense that Military forces which are generally manning much more powerful weapons mounted onboard vehicles to carry smaller weapons on the occasion that they're not onboard a battleship, tank, APC, or a fighter jet.

 

[TunnelRat]

Is "compact" becoming the new service gun size?

But not every Marine is in a tank/APC or stationed aboard a ship (though for the Air Force and Navy that’s a fair point). The Marines have plenty of riflemen. Before the M18 the Marines used the same sidearms as the Army in the M9/M9A1 and the M1911 before that (only MARSOC was the CQB and G19 and NSW was the P226). In fact the special forces pistols you mentioned show a move toward more compact pistols than at least the M9 to be seemingly applicable in a wider variety of roles.

I think there’s an honest question of how much capability is lost in going to a 3.9” barrel as opposed to a 4.7” barrel in terms of sight radius and felt recoil. In this case they both have the same grip length so the capacity is the same.

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[Sgt127]

When we went with issued Glocks 1999 or so, uniforms got Glock 35’s. Detectives, or smaller Officers, had the option of the Glock 23.

We upgraded to Glock 22’s across the department about 13 years later.

I’ve retired but I think now it’s optional Glock 19 or 17.

I’m seeing a lot of places where the 19 is the issue Gun across the board. I’m in no way a Glock fan. But, 19 is about as close to a perfect all purpose gun I’ve seen. As a matter of fact, I have bought one Glock in my life. A 19.

 

[44caliberkid]

Military needs may be different than civilian policing needs. In the Army I would want the full length slide and full mag capacity, for urban police work, where I might be in a wrestling match for my side arm on a regular basis, any shots taken are likely to be at close range, a Glock 19 might be better.

 

[Ignition Override]

Guten morgen Herr Richter:

Chatting with a Polizei in the Nuremberg Train Station two years ago, he told me that they had switched from the Sig P6 to the HK P30.

Tons of agencies in Germany had used or still use similar Sigs, HKs, Walthers (P99s etc) of roughly the same size.

He is the only LEO I've actually chatted with about duty guns in the last five years, although we live near Memphis TN.

Between those German brands and Glocks, doesn't the fairly standard (?) 9x19 cartridge allow duty guns to be -- lighter -- than many .40 S&W and especially .45s, at least on average ?
If so, then wouldn't it justify a trend to "Compacts" in many or Most countries?

* I don't know, just curious.

 

[Shadow9mm]

All the agencies in my area run full sized guns. Cost us generally the same. Compact only helps with concealability which is a moot point with a gun on a duty belt that us being open carried.

 

[bamaranger]

moot

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the the smaller guns might not have some advantages. Patrol carries so much hardware on their belts these days that a few ounces saved with the smaller handgun might be appreciated. Too, a shorter barreled handgun might not bear on the seat so much when sitting in a patrol rig, or, the shorter gun could be carried in a holster that rides lower, clearing body armor or an external patrol vest more easily, and yet not gouge into the seat (and thus your ribs) as much.

 

[Brit]

First of all, I am a Glock man. And at 85 years of age, not working in the Security armed Officer field anymore. But I carry a Glock 19 every day.
Complete with night sights. (First modification you do to a Glock pistol, is to dump those plastic monstrosities, Glock factory issue sights) my Gen4 G19 has never malfunctioned, ever, through thousands of rounds of factory 9mm fired in IDPA matches.

I have watched many Police forces cycle through .45 calibre, 40 cal. and then (with FBI coaching back to the 9mm) my feeling on shooting people with handguns, no matter being a legally concealed carrying person, or LEO or Security Officer. It is where you place the rounds, not the calibre of said rounds.

Just about all of Europe carry 9mm pistols. And with the huge advancement in bullet technology, they seem to work well. In the case of my Glock 19, in the gun, a 15 round magazine, plus a round in the breach 16 total. A spare 17 round magazine is 33 total rounds. For the last year or so, 147g Federal HST.