Is California our South?

[Rob Pincus]

In the United States a certain group of people hav3 different rights in different parts of the country. In some places they are welcome, some they are not. Some people treat them fairly and with respect, some people treat them badly. Some people even fear them.
The same was true for another group in the mid to late 60's.

At one point, a few of them who did not have it easy stood up to their oppressors. They did it a time and in a place where it was most likely to be detrimental to them, possibly lethal.
They sparked the largest civil rights movement in the history of the country, and arguably the most successful civil rights fight in the history of the world.

Will there be some people in California to actively resist the oppression? When the authorities come to arrest them will they be properly met? Will there be some of us who will support them, regardless of the laws where we live?



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-Essayons

 

[Mike in VA]

Interesting parallel, Rob. I was thinking just yesterday that all this crap in CA is really ripe as a 2nd (& 10th?) Amendment civil rights issue, and someone (but who?)needs to craft an appropriate (read: winable) test case and find the right (Federal?) venue to pursue it in. Most of these silly-assed laws are being passed without basis in fact or practice, and are inherently discriminatory. why can't they be overturned?

M2

 

[Dennis]

Looking for a Rosa Parks (the black lady who refused to move to the back of the bus)? Looking for a Rev. King? They're us.

There were Rose Parks and Rev. Kings long before those two people "made a difference". What happened to the earlier versions? As Rob alludes to, they were shot, in some cases. Beaten and jailed in other cases. That's why it's hard to be first. It's easier to let someone else do it.

That's why we have to stick together - we must support and defend ourselves and each other. We no longer have Jury Nullification to protect us - we (as Americans) let that most effective non-violent weapon slip away from us. Now we must rely upon the guts of those willing to suffer the consequences of civil disobedience. Remember how many blacks were beaten, fire-hosed, jailed, bombed, shot, hanged, etc.? We may be in for a hell of a fight, guys.

 

[DC]

Well, I've lived here all my life and I still don't understand Cali politics other than if the politicos want it, they get it and if they don't we won't.

Whether you agree with the particular initiatives is not the point, the people voted for these directly and they were still stopped from taking effect: Yes on medical Marijuana; end of Affirmative action; end of bi-lingual education..

As to Rob's topic: Yes I do think Cali is the modern South. There will be disobedience. I don't know if it will be "heroic" like Rob wants to see...i.e. a bunch of folks voluntarily turning themselves in....but there will be a lot of disobedience, lots of jamming the courts and lots of monies spent. Alot of non-Calif folk think the whole state is like LA, SF and the Bay Area.....it isn't. We are a divided state...we gave you Boxer, Feinstein and Cranston...but we also gave you Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and Bob Dornan.
We have crippling taxes and fees and the highest gas prices in the nation. The politicos (local on up) piss money away like water. The average person is damned fed up living in this pressure cooker...its going to get very ugly here

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

 

[Chuck B.]

Dennis:

Whoa. What do you mean "we no longer have Jury Nulification"? Do you know something I don't? Was there a high court ruling on this? I appreciate that judges routinely tell jurors that they must vote according to his instructions, and that they don't explain the absolute right of jurors' to vote their concience; but that's just crap and it doesn't make jury nulification evaporate. Does it?

 

[Little-e]

This all sound great but I need some suggestions on what to do to help our friends in CA. I'm fairly young and did not experience the Civil Rights movement or for the most part, Vietnam. All I have to go on is what I learned in History class and what is said by folks like you all. I tend to be somewhat afraid to believe everything taught in History class (liberal schooling--never heard about the Bonus Army) so that leaves me with people like you.

I feel bad about what is happening in CA. It scares me. It scares me because I believe it will soon happen to me and I have to do something about that.

I've wrote congress. I've wrote more letters in the past 6 months than I have the rest of my life. I'm middle class with decent bills but I give regularly to gun rights groups. It's not working.

So what do I do? How do we band people together and say we have had enough? How long do we wait? When they walk up to my door or arrest my friends, I think it will be too late. What legal options do we have?

 

[DC]

Chuck..

Jury Nullification is still in effect and they can't do anything about it until they disband the jury system. They can say what they want, but as long as jurors vote their conscience the pezzonovante can bite it!

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

 

[John/az2]

Yes, Dennis. Please explain as you have posted this on several other threads.

Little-e,

The avenues of peaceful recourse without impending bankruptcy seem to be all but gone, and even then the odds are mostly likely stacked against you.

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com


[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited June 04, 1999).]

 

[bookkie]

Little:

I'm now in my late 40's and with all of my experience and learning I am just as dumbfounded as you are on how to get people off their A** to do something here in CA. I'm the treasurer for our local gun club with over 1,200 members. I'm unable to convince any but a handful that we must do something. For example I presented FOUP to them. I got maybe three checks out of the whole group.

Most of them are hunters and don't see any problem with the new laws being passed. The only one's I have been able to get riled enough to do something (join in on the campaign for pro-gun canidates) are those that have 'assault weapons' that are currently baned in CA. These individuals are already practicing civil disobience. I also would like to find out what to do. I've come to the conclusion that I will just say no.

Richard

 

[DC]

Ya'll should understand something...its very unlikely that "they will come for your guns", i.e. come into your house for that express purpose.

California has turned bureacracy into an art form and use DMV and the Franchise Tax Board as the ways to get you.
Say you have registered guns and one or all are banned, or you owe child support, or you have a few parking tickets or basically anything....you don't comply. You will get a citation in the mail with an order to appear....if you don't appear, they will contact DMV and put a want out on you, suspend your driver's license and vehicle registration ( and the fines are quickly adding up)...now DMV wants you too for money....continued failure to appear is both leading to criminal charges and real hefty fines....now the Tax Board goes after your bank accounts and they put liens on your property. At the end, the original charges are nothing compared to what they have on you now

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

 

[Dennis]

Ref: Jury Nullification. I started a new thread ('cause I'm gonna need help).

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited June 04, 1999).]

 

[Rob Pincus]

weLL, Rosa Parks got a medal yesterday, Do you think one of us will get medla in 30 years?

If it does start in California, I imiagnine that there wil be many of us that will head west to join our brothers and sisters.....

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-Essayons

 

[chink]

You know why there will be no Rosa Parks or Dr. King in CA? cuz the movements are different.
Dr. King and Mrs. Parks had nothing to lose, the rights they had were minimal and could not be taken way, so they had everything to gain.
In Ca, although the gun rights we have are minimal, they can still take more. Also, most gun owners like shooting as much as having the guns around. If you fight the system outside the boundaries of the law, you become a felon and you lose all you guns, not just the ones on the list.
Unless you guys are talking about staging sit-ins at the capitol and at city hall, marching to Sac, etc. these won't get much media attention, cuz cali meida is full of socialist gun grabbers

 

[Dennis]

((I can't resist this...))

You folks in California must create your own resistance movement; then others will join you from other states. In other words,

"If you build it, they will come."

 

[Ivan8883]

From: Ivan88836-16-99 635PM EDT Since the suject of Kalifornia has come up, I have been hearing that ,with nearly 50% of the state being Spanish speaking,the chances are real good that a breakaway from US conrtrol is very possible. I talked to a lady who has been fighting the unrestricted immigration into Kalifornia. Anglo protesters are hassled by mainly Hispanic police forces in the state. English speaking citizens are fleeing Kalifornia in large numbers. With Mexico allowing dual voting for its citizens in Kalifornia, it looks very p0ssible that kalifornia could be gone some day soon fromUS control( at least the bottom two third)Maybe this is off the subject,but it is possible authorities want guns out of the hands of Patriots before making the big move to declare Kalifornia independent from Uncle Samuel! We know police forces are heavily inflitrated by pro Mexican sympathizers in many areas. Do not get me wrong. This could be just the chickens coming home to roast after the US MEXICAN War gave US all that territory.Hey, do you think Klinton would send his Nato Army to bomb Kalifornia if they declare independence from US? Ivan8883

 

[olazul]

Ivan,

I'm really not sure where to begin. I guess a good start is that I find your post offensive because of it's anti-latino undertones. I am a native Kalifornian- for good or bad. One of the strong points of Kali is the ethnic diversity.

"with nearly 50% of the state being Spanish speaking"

Having lived and worked in San Diego, Orange, and LA counties I have not seen this. To be sure there is a segment that speaks a foriegn language, this statistic is a very gross exageration.

"Anglo protesters are hassled by mainly Hispanic police forces in the state"

I have been in protests and this I have not seen nor heard of. "Da man" is da man regardless of color(most instances). The instances where I have seen clearcut discriminatory hassles usually have it the other way around.

"English speaking citizens are fleeing Kalifornia in large numbers"

If they are fleeing to escape the cultural diversity- good riddance. Most people I know that have left went to find affordable housing or escape the traffic, congestion, and smog.

"We know police forces are heavily inflitrated by pro Mexican sympathizers in many areas"

Huh?

If there is a conspiracy to secede, I have not heard of it. Again, it is not your theory of secession that I find repugnant (hey, I've heard stranger), but your post smacks of some rather distasteful ideals.

Anyway, you of course are free to think and say what you wish, but I have not seen a post turn in this direction before at the TFL and do not find it's presence welcome. Perhaps I read something into your post that is not there, if I did then I apologize up front.


Olazul

 

[chink]

Ivan
I don't know what your on, but that the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Although they did shut down most of the military capablility in Cali.
Cali is almost gun free cuz we attract stupid ultra elitist socailist garbage who don't realize that being an elitist and a socialist is an oxymoron

Also, I concur with Ozaul. There seem to be a lot of hate flowing from your post. The numbers you put up seem awfully high and general. we have a lot of Hispanic, but we also have a lot of asians, african americans also. In sf bay area, white is still the majority with about 45% of the population, asians have about 20% up here, so I don't see how hispanic can be even close to 40, unless there are no black people and indians and peeps for the middle east.

[This message has been edited by chink (edited June 16, 1999).]

 

[Ivan8883]

FromIvan88836-16-99 920PM EDT I apoligize if you think I am showing somr type of intolerance towards Spanish speaking peoples.What I said probably wasnt very clear.I was trying to addressthe problem of illegal imigration into the state and have heard from people who are harrassed by authorities when they demonstrate against lack of enforcement of immigration laws which would affect all people in the state including people of Hispanic decent who would have to suffer the consequences of illegal immigration like any other citizens of the state. But I apologize again if I sounded like some kind of rascist or intolerant person which I am not Ivan

 

[DC]

Mea culpa....my post violated TFL policies. Objectionable content deleted

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"



[This message has been edited by DC (edited June 16, 1999).]

 

[PKAY]

Yo Ivan: Where to begin. First, the secessionist stuff is pure bull. Maybe Idaho, not California. Second, there is no Hispanic hegemony here. Lots of folks named Maria or Margarita have husbands and boy friends named Jeff and Bill and vice versa. Also, the Hispanic heritage in California is rich and varied. There is no better Mexican food anywhere. In fact, as one radio ad for it states, "If you can find more authentic Mexican food anywhere else, don't drink the water."

It's been my experience that our new immigrants work harder, are more familial, and return kindnesses often. Since my life depended on both my black and Hispanic brothers in Vietnam and theirs on mine, I'll opt for diversity any day. Besides, Latin jazz is sooo hip!

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Safe shooting - PKAY