Is an AR-15 relatively useless for home defense

[Forseti]

I've considered purchasing some variant of an AR-15 carbine, or building my own, but now I am begining to think it would only be useful to get a full sized 20" target model for competition...considering:

If you HAVE to fire it indoors without hearing protection, you're deaf, or at least suffering from permanent hearing loss. Or worse, constant ringing in the ears.

If you fire it indoors WITH hearing protection, good for you, but your peripheral hearing is muffled, so you can't hear anything in the house...and thats bad if you're scanning for bad guys.

Despite the articles on the .223 round not being as overpenetrating as previously thought, that sucker is going to rip right through sheet rock with no problem. I wouldn't want to endanger anyone in the house other than bad guys, and the neighbors are certainly at risk.

You can't shoot at anyone outside the house (even bad guys) without running afoul of the law under almost any circumstances.

So it looks like the marginal utility of the AR-15 for home is very low. Shotgun or pistol only seems to be it. Wish it were otherwise.

 

[Tango27]

If you fire MOST firearms indoors without hearing protection, your hearing will be affected at least for a while. Considering bad guys aren't going to wait for you to put on hearing protection, I think noise is a non-factor in considering a house gun.

True, .223 will probably zip right through your standard 3/4" sheetrock. So will rounds from a handgun, and I'd bet that buckshot would too.

If you're looking for an "inside" gun, then you want something shorter than a 20" AR, and shotguns are excellent choices.

 

[Coinneach]

Long guns (rifles or shotguns) are the artillery of the HD battery. Therefore, you'll probably have time to prepare for the goblin's presence, assuming a decent outer security setup. You're not gonna go out clearing your house, right?

Hearing protection: get electronics, like Pro-Ears or Peltors. They'll stomp the sound of the shot while not interfering with (and possibly enhancing) your normal hearing.

Penetration: get a couple-three sheets of the same material as your walls, then take them and your AR to the range. Set up the sheetrock at a distance approximately equal to that between your barricade position and saferoom door. Try different bullet types and see which one penetrates least. I'm betting on Federal's ballistic tips (with the orange plastic noses) or Hornady's V-Max.

All that aside, my first choice for HD is a good old M500 12-gauge stoked with 1 Buck.

[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited May 19, 2000).]

 

[Correia]

Depends on where you live. I grew up out in the boondocks, our nearest neighbor was my Grandma, at about a mile away, the next neighbor was a couple of miles past that. If I lived there still then the rifle would be my first choice for HD.

Right now I live in an apartment in a suburban neighborhood, so a rifle probably isn't the best choice for me now.

It all depends on your situation.

 

[Robb]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Forseti:
I've considered purchasing some variant of an AR-15 carbine, or building my own, but now I am begining to think it would only be useful to get a full sized 20" target model for competition...considering:

If you HAVE to fire it indoors without hearing protection, you're deaf, or at least suffering from permanent hearing loss. Or worse, constant ringing in the ears.

If you fire it indoors WITH hearing protection, good for you, but your peripheral hearing is muffled, so you can't hear anything in the house...and thats bad if you're scanning for bad guys.

Despite the articles on the .223 round not being as overpenetrating as previously thought, that sucker is going to rip right through sheet rock with no problem. I wouldn't want to endanger anyone in the house other than bad guys, and the neighbors are certainly at risk.

You can't shoot at anyone outside the house (even bad guys) without running afoul of the law under almost any circumstances.

So it looks like the marginal utility of the AR-15 for home is very low. Shotgun or pistol only seems to be it. Wish it were otherwise.[/quote]

The shooting school called Front Sight or Gun Site did a study on the affect of softpoint .223 in drywall and it actually pentrated LESS than handgun calibers because the fast .223 fragmented and its much easier for a 55gr round to loose momentum quickly than a 230gr hollowpoint that'll most likely get clogged with drywall and turn into 'hardball' anyway. The .223 is also a much better stopper against humans (as good as a shotgun), my only beef is with how loud it would be shooting my 16" AR inside the house (mines loaded with 55gr VMAX moly rounds, incase I need it though).
Robb

 

[pete80]

A handgun should be the primary home defense weapon since you can arm yourself with it much quicker than a rifle or shotgun. An AR-15 is a good choice for static defense in a house/apartment. This means don't go clearing rooms with any AR-15 (M4 14" or whatever). I wouldn't suggest you clear the house by yourself anyways!

Nothing is more destructive at close range than a shotgun. NOTHING! No matter what some "wonder" rifle round can do, it's only one round. With a shotgun, your firing 9 to 12 pellets at a time. At 7 yards, your hitting your assailant with a fist sized charge of buckshot.

No matter what you arm yourself with, be carefull of the background. Amagine some spooked citizen lighting up a shadow in his apartment with an AR-15 at o'dark thirty in the morning. Ain't gonna be pretty no matter what. Weapon mounted lights are a big plus in home defense. Sure-fire makes great lights for handguns, shotguns and rifles. They really give you an edge by letting you identify your target and blind him.

 

[4V50 Gary]

In a self defense situation, adrenalin will be racing through your body, and it is not uncommon for the auditory system to suffer a breakdown. Most police officers who are involved in gunfights report that they hear a muffled "pop" and even lose count of the number of shots fired. I wouldn't worry about the hearing inasmuch as I would be concerned about stopping your assailant.

For self defense, I prefer less expensive guns (reliability is critical). Remember, your firearm will be confiscated as evidence and there is no telling how long the agency will hold onto it.

 

[Robb]

Originally posted by 4V50 Gary:
In a self defense situation, adrenalin will be racing through your body, and it is not uncommon for the auditory system to suffer a breakdown. Most police officers who are involved in gunfights report that they hear a muffled "pop" and even lose count of the number of shots fired. I wouldn't worry about the hearing inasmuch as I would be concerned about stopping your assailant.

True you may not hear the sounds, but the sound still reaches your ear and I'll bet 10 to 1 that its doing some harm.
Robb

 

[Gary H]

All of the above posts make sense, but why do entry teams use either shotguns, or AR-15/MP5/Mini-14?

If I were protecting an open staircase, I would prefer to have my Rem. 870, or Carbon 15. Otherwise, my first reaction to possible problems would be to reach for Mr. Glock.

 

[gunmart]

erick ,we had a sound engineer from a local collage do some informal testing of rifles and shotguns indoors.the results were suprising.the rifles (223)resulted the shooter faced with a home defence situation having to fire 2 rounds with about a estimated 10 percent permament hearing damage.the shotguns were estimated at only about 2percent permament hearing damage.these results were by no means scientific but just led me to belive that a shoulder fire weapon indoors will result in permament hearing loss.louis awerbuck in a recent shotgun class allowed a shotgun shooter to shoot at the crash dummy before he had his plugs in.he stated that he probably will suffer some permament hearing damage from that.(just food for thought)personally i do keep a set of proears on top of my ar15 for home defence.i hope someday someone will make a set that is motion activated for just such an occation.

 

[M1911]

1) You will likely suffer permanent hearing damage from any gunshot fired indoors. Yes AR15s are loud. So are shotguns. Get a set of electronic shooting muffs (e.g., Peltors, Wolfs Ears, etc.).

2) Regarding penetration, any round that penetrates a person adequately will also penetrate walls. Using the right loads of .223, you'll have less problems with over penetration than with most handgun calibers and '00 buck.

3) The AR15 has a lot less recoil than a shotgun.

4) Even at room-size distances (e.g., 10-20 feet), I find it easier to make multiple fast, accurate shots with an AR15 than with a handgun. At a defensive carbine class recently, we did some point shooting at close range with an AR15. Quite effective at close range.

I'm not saying that the AR15 is perfect for home defense or that it is the "best" alternative for home defense. All of the choices (handguns, shotguns, carbines) have their advantages and disadvantages. A shorty AR15 is a fine choice for home defense when used with appropriate ammunition.

Jared

 

[Gary H]

Just finished "The Ayoob Files: The Book". A very good book. It makes me realize that stopping power is very much a theoretical thing. It seems that you can never have enough firepower. I would rather be deaf than dead. Assuming that I would never fire a gun inside my house for any reason other than last resort self-defense, I think that my ears may suffer, but I would rather save my a__. Also, as mentioned above, the intimidation factor is much greater with a nasty looking long gun. Of course, by the time you are noticed, there probably isn't much time for intimidation to work its charms. Maybe Mr. Glock will not be my first choice.

 

[Prof]

But, as some of the above posters noted, you don't have to decide between being deaf or being dead. Keep a set of electronic muffs next to your defensive firearm. And as they said, if you don't use hearing protection you WILL suffer PERMANENT loss. I shoot with a hearing specialist (M.D.) and he confirms this (he wears plugs and muffs anytime he shoots). Also, I remember reading of a Highway Patrolman who had to shoot a suspect inside his patrol car and he was permanently and completely deaf after firing the one round. Don't take chances with your hearing!

 

[GlockNLock]

1) It depends where you live, an AR15 has advantages if you need to engage targets at longer ranges.
2) An AR15 is much better equipped to deal with multiple adversaries who may have cover/concealment and/or body armor. Sure your shotgun slug may put an armored person down through kinetic energy, but what if it were multiple armored thugs? There isn't much armor out there that will deal with 5.56mm, and a 30 shot weapon with negligible recoil and muzzle climb is, IMO, superior to a shotgun for these situations.
3) Regarding hearing loss: You may not "hear" the round fire, but your eardrums ARE gonna resonate/rupture. Any long gun (and handgun to a lesser extent) will produce a crushing pressure wave in closed quarters (ever stand next to an AK-break laden AR firing outside, WITH eyes and ears? You can feel your skin ripple, now think of your eardrums and the fact that those waves are going to be amplified by walls. Always always use hearing protection (electronic) with long guns! Which leads to
4) Long guns are NOT quick-response weapons! If you don't have time, grab a handgun, that's what they're for. If you have time to get a long gun then you have time to put on hearing protection for it.
5) Penetration: M193 55gr. FMJ will penetrate less through sheetrock than any 9mm+ caliber handgun (not including frangibles) or any buckshot. It's lighter and faster and thus will break up faster. It will also be MUCH more effective than any handgun caliber weapon. 5.56 is more effective vs. most cover than handgun rounds because if you try to hide behind something the M193 will still fragment in the object and likely spray shrapnel through, whereas most handgun rounds will turn into FMJ and penetrate and penetrate and penetrate, not to mention that M193 will defeat body armor...

I think that handgun, shotgun and AR all have applications for home defense, and all are incorperated in my own plan. Vs one or two intruders at room ranges my first choice remains shotgun with 3 rounds of #2 buckshot followed by 5 of #00. Any more intruders (or time to get into full tac gear) means that I'm bringing my AR, and any need for a faster response means my handgun.

Forseti- IMO you will be well served by an AR15 with a barrel length of 14.5-16" (if less than 16" with a Bushmaster AK brake or a Flash Hider if you're lucky enough) unless you are planning on PRIMARILY shooting past 200 yards. A barrel this length provides enough velocity to make 5.56mm a VERY effective round out to 150-200 yards and a combat-accurate and margianlly effective round out to 300. This gives you an ideal mix of close-in manuvering and range. If you really want the extra distance with 5.56 then 20" is the way to go.

 

[dZ]

posted these before
I think i will post'em again http://www.olyarms.com/223pen.html

 

[El Rojo]

I am sorry everyone, but this whole hearing damage indoors during a self defense situation makes me want to vomit. Anyone ever been hunting large game or ducks and geese? You use large guns that make lots of noise and kick like a mule. After shooting, my dad asked me, "how was the recoil?" My reply, "I don't remember." I was focused on other things and didn't pay attention or even notice the recoil. I don't really remember the sound either.

And as reading this, I realized, I have discharged a firearm indoors before. Let me tell you this was by no means a good expereince for me. In fact, it was about the most horrible thing I have ever done. I accidently discharged the M1 Carbine in the living room. I remember no signifigane noise to this day except that I did not hear the usual "click" that usually occurs immediately after pulling the trigger. I know it went off and I remember hearing it go off, but I didn't drop to the ground whithering in pain, holding my hands over my head pleading to the Lord to make the pain go away. No I went outside to see if I had killed a neighbor and to assess the damage. The Lord was with me and no harm was done. I did learn an important lesson that day and felt like an idiot for it (let me tell you how stupid you will feel after a complete idiot accident like that). I spend every moment with my guns thinking about avoiding that accident again.

Yet I digress. The important thing, forget about hearing damage and all of that crap. If you want to keep the peltor electronic ears around, that is cool. I personally am not going to worry about my electronic ears (mainly cause I don't have any yet). If I detect someone in my house, wishing bodily harm upon me, I am going to shoot that person until the threat stops. If my ears are ringing and I have some ear damage, I will deal with it. If I am too worried about my ear muffs and the intruder puts two rounds in me, I guess I can hand him the ear muffs and tell him, "Don't hurt your ears when you finish me off wiith a round to my head!"

My final point, when it comes time to defend your home, I hope you will use whatever means are necessary. I have a serious feeling most of us here wouldn't even talk about this completely lame hearing issue if we were ever in a real home defense situation. Namely because we would know our lives are in danger and when that happens, you take care of the most immediate threat first.

So, what is your most immediate threat? Hearing loss or severe blood loss?

 

[storm]

I feel like I should respond because I have actual experience firing an AR15 carbine indoors.

Do worry about the noise. It is the least of your concern if you have to use a firearm. I didn't affect me in any way. In fact I don't remember hearing any sound at all.
If you have muzzle break, then it is a different story. It will give you ringing ears. Lost the break, boys, it is no a toy.

Overpenatraction? Got to be kidding. What a joke. Even a 38O will penatrate more than 55Gr FMJ. I have seen 9MM gone through several walls. The mil spec. 223 55Gr FMJ I fired only went through one closet door (1/2" thick) and one jacket sleeve. It did even make it to the wall of the closet.

However, even a softpoint 223 will defeat any soft body armor out there, and have near perfect one shot stops (99%), making it the ideal defense round.

An AR 15 carbine gives you 30 rounds in the mag and you can reload in three seconds or less. Nothing on the market will give you more fire power.

Don't think a shotgun is superior to a carbine. Anyone who has shot a SWAT type competition knows the carbine will beat the shoot gun just about everytime. The reason COPs use shootgun is because it is politically correct, not because it is better.

 

[El Rojo]

[qoute]Don't think a shotgun is superior to a carbine. Anyone who has shot a SWAT type competition knows the carbine will beat the shoot gun just about everytime. The reason COPs use shootgun is because it is politically correct, not because it is better.[/qoute]

Key word here is a SWAT type competition. A SWAT competition involves trying to get the most amount of points by hitting a paper target or hitting knock down targets. Of course it is easy to topple a knock down target at 50 yards with a carbine than a shotgun.

However, we are not talking about a SWAT competition. We are talking about home invasion or a possible search warrant. At close range (in the house), a shotgun is going to have the greatest stopping power with solid hits compared to a carbine. I don't think anyone that knows their head from their arse is going to challenge this one. At close range, a 12 gauge to center mass is going to stop a subject cold with buckshot.

Past 50 yards, one would most likely prefer a carbine. The greater accuracy at slightly longer distances would be a definite advantage.

I don't think this has anything to do with politics. If you are on an entry team or in the home and want to stop someone 10 yards away or less, I would prefer a 12 gauge with any type of load. At that distance the dove loads should do a pretty good job, but obvious buckshot would be prefered. If a hostage is around, you might want to have a carbine nearby for those crucial head shots. So no, a shotgun is not superior to a carbine. Actually, every weapon has an intended use and would work better in a certain situations over others. In close range home defense, I would think a shotgun would be the most effective means of defense. However, the Remington 700, the PC 9, or the Glock 27 will just as surely persuade a criminal to stop.

 

[Nyterunner]

Since I'm on an entry team, I'll put in my two cents. I prefer the CAR-15 for one critical reason: accuracy. A CAR-15 with an aimpoint is great in a house (as far as longarms go). Shotguns are effective, but the brutal recoil makes followup shots difficult, even with training. A CAR will be a lot easier to engage multiple targets with. A CAR loaded with Hornady TAP Urban 55gr. will give ideal penetration on body armor while minimizing barrier penetration. reloading a CAR is MUCH faster, a consideration if the situation has deteriorated to the point of needing a longarm. I keep a revolver near my head, and my CAR next to my bed. 'nuff said.

------------------
I don't CARE about pretty....I just want dangerous.

 

[mooser]

the .223 penetrates less in ballistic geletin than most standard hollowpoint handgun rounds, as well as buckshot and slugs from a shotgun. these results are the same after passing through intermediate barriers such as sheetrock, plywood, glass, clothing, etc.
what happens to hollowpoint handgun rounds in sheetrock is that they plug up and now become full ball ammo, then they keep going through many more walls. what happens to the .223 hollowpoint round is that it is so hyper that it breaks up when passing through sheetrock.
most .223 hollowpoints are broken into pieces as they exit the second layer of sheetrock in a non-insulated wall. our agency uses the hornady .55gr tap. this is a very safe round, much safer than handgun or shotgun rounds. a shoulder weapon is easier to shoot under stress, and more accurate. in regards to the .223 carbine such as an ar15, when you press the trigger you only have to account for one projectile leaving the barrel, versus many with a shotgun.

just my $.02

sully www.defensive-edge.net