Is a gun useful here?

[griz]

I was reading this thread:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=62268

And the incident made me wonder about a hypothetical that would start the same way. My apologies to Dr. Rob for borrowing the beginning of his problem:
You hear a knock on your door and find a woman there who ask if you would let her in so that she could get away from (she points across the street) that man. "That man" gets out of his car and approaches your house. She appears scared, he appears very big and angry. Neither has any visible weapon. You are in your open doorway and the woman has not entered the house, she is still on the porch. The man catches her and starts shaking her, slapping her, and yelling at her. She is getting beat hard enough for bruises and scrapes but not broken bones. You would be armed with whatever you brought to the door. My question:
What do you do, call 911, hit the guy, threaten him with your gun, shoot him where he stands, use harsh language?
I ask this because in reading the original thread it was largely about whether or not you should have a gun. The actual incident could have gone another way but if it panned out like this it seems to me a gun would not be an advantage but a hindrance because you would need to consider weapon retention if you waded into the mess.
My reaction is to call 911 first, then assuming she is still not getting a life threatening beating, look for something to stop the guy with, OC spray, 2 X 4, etc. I think I would like a gun on me in case he decides I’m his next target.
I would also be interested in LEO responses since I’m sure you have similar concerns when grappling with an unarmed person.

 

[David Scott]

Life threatening or not, a beating is still a beating. Assault is a crime. Your scenario says he gets to her before you get her inside, so in that case I'd feel justified in restraining him. Being outside on the porch I don't know if you could use lethal force and come through the grand jury OK, but if pepper spray is handy, I'd use it. I'd also try to get his feet out from under him, and if he does go down keep him there and tell her to run.

I think, though, that when I saw him coming I would have got her in fast and locked the door in his face. Then I would arm myself and dial 911. When he starts banging on the door, shout through the door that the police are being called. If he tries to break in, shout "I'm armed and you're trespassing! Go away!" If he does break in, consult your jurisdiction's laws on the use of deadly force against intruders. Here in Florida, the "castle doctrine" says you need not retreat if assaulted in your home, and the "stand in the shoes" doctrine permits you to act in defense of another if that person would be justified in using force themselves. DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

All the while I'd have to keep an eye on the woman in case it's a setup, but it's much more likely she's really being abused. It's not my job to solve their domestic problems, but I would not like to look myself in the mirror if I stood idle and let him break her jaw on the porch. I'd just get her secured and let the cops sort it out.

 

[croyance]

I am not, nor will ever be a LEO.

That said, it is always difficult with a woman. From what I have seen, domestic abuse is hard on those who try to stop it. They both turn on you. I believe LEOs will agree. At the same time, the boyscout in me tells me to step in.

I'd get her in fast, and close the deadbolt. I'd call 911 while arming myself. In my place, I can do both simultaneously (a few guns are around the place) while watching her. It is important to remain on the phone with 911. They will be able to verify what they have heard. In the case of abuse, you may be justified in shooting said gorilla when he breaks in, but she may testify otherwise. The tape may save you. If it is a set-up, you may end up shooting them both. Staying verbal and keeping the 911 operator updated is a must also.

I'd wish for simpler times, but that was only when people were more naive and thought things were simpler.

 

[GSB]

"The tape may save you."
<p>
Great advice!

 

[Gonzo_308]

NO!!! DO NOT GET A GUN!!! Let me put this in the mix. You pull a gun on him and he decides you need a beating worse than she does! Now you've got one hand busy and are gonna get pummelled! You can't shoot him unless you can reasonably argue that your life or hers was in danger. (I've had my ass kicked before and it wasn't life threatening) I don't think this situation merits a gun yet. Get her inside, call 911 watch her and let him stew outside. If you need to you can always escalate to match the threat as it developes.

 

[hoeftjl]

Texas law says that if someone is beating you in the face, head, throat, neck, or spine with fists (or anything for that matter) it is considered assault with a deadly weapon. That's what I was told in my CHL class.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Gonzo,

With all due respect, you have not considered one thing. A butt-kicking that would not be life threatening to you could very well be lethal to someone else.

I have known of far too many people to die from a blow that most folks would shake off and keep going. I don't think that many people, myself included, are really qualified to judge whether or not the butt-kicking being administered to another person is life-threatening or not.

I say, be armed when you go to the door. ALWAYS. Have a phone near at hand. Bring the woman inside, use the phone and be prepared to use the gun. In the event the man attempts to enter, have the gun in hand. If it is a set up, the sight of a gun in your hand might make the inside woman think better of attacking you.

The advise to keep 911 on the line is very good. I still remember the incident in which the 911 operator was forced to tell a homeowner to use the gun in his hand. The shots from the 9mmP Beretta are quite clear on the tape. It saved not only criminal investigation and charges against the homeowner, but it headed off a civil suit by the deceased's next of kin.

Doc Hudson

 

[griz]

Thanks for the responses. I like the idea of staying in contact with 911, especially if (as happened in Dr. Rob’s real case) the woman did not want to hang around and talk to the police. My original concern was that pulling your gun could be viewed in court as you escalating the level of force, and having the "victim" more or less against you in court would make it worse. I’m glad to see everybody would try to stop him. It might be legally reasonable to call 911 then be a good witness, but I don’t think I could do that.

 

[Coronach]

911 tapes may save you

yes, yes yes.

If NOTHING else, get 911 into the phone and drop it...an open line with a fight/argument in the background will get the cops sent...especially if you add in things like GET OUT OF MY HOUSE and YOU ARE TRESPASSING...around here, thats called a home invasion, or at least a burglary in progress, and will get cops coming pretty darned fast (much faster than a domestic).

Also, it will all be recorded.

So, uh...obviously, make sure you don't break the law.

Mike