Info on this Luger?

[DubC-Hicks]

I recently won a Luger on gunbroker, I saw it for (what I think is) a good price. I've always wanted one, so I figured why not? What's interesting is there are hardly any markings on it at all. I can't discern which manufacturer it's from. I'm assuming it's a commercial version. Can anyone help me out here? I'd really appreciate it.

Here's the link:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/571487413

 

[spacecoast]

This appears to be a scrubbed and refinished DWM 1908 Bulgarian Contract Luger, probably shipped in 1910. It originally had a Bulgarian emblem on top of the front toggle and DWM over the chamber, characteristics unique to 1908 Bulgarians (no other DWM Lugers were marked like this, they all had DWM on the front toggle). The milled off safety marking was the Bulgarian word for "FIRE". If you lift up the extractor it would be interesting to know if it is marked with the Bulgarian word for "Loaded". Other parts appear to be mismatched because in general they should have the last two digits of the frame serial number (87). It may also have been rebarreled.

Here's a link to a post showing my 1908 Bulgarian and all the original markings. Another unique feature of these Lugers was the lanyard loop at the bottom of the grip frame, no other Lugers were ever made with that feature and if you remove the grip panels on yours you will like see an extra hole in the frame for the ends of the loop.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?36716-Bulgarian-Luger-ID-Info-Value-needed

I'm really glad you posted this because I am the keeper of the Bulgarian lists over at luger.gunboards.com and the frame serial number on this gun is a valuable piece of data. Supposedly there were 10,000 1908 Bulgarians shipped in two different series of 5,000 (one with a C suffix), but no legitimate guns numbered higher than 1339C have yet to be found.

By the way, you did fine on your purchase, it will make a nice shooter assuming everything is functional, and the price was right. These guns (Bulgarian Lugers) were almost all used up in fighting several wars and most were parted out after WWII. Only 44 with original parts and finish have been documented.

In case you are wondering, many of the Bulgarian Lugers were scrubbed of markings before being imported in the 1960s because they were perceived as coming from a "communist" state, although 1910 Bulgaria had nothing to do with later domination by the USSR.

We'd love to have you join over at luger.gunboards.com, it's a great group which includes some of the world's best Luger experts. Your Bulgarian is a pretty special gun, even though its markings have unfortunately been removed and some parts replaced.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?36871-1908-DWM-Bulgarian-contract-Luger-census-92-guns-and-counting

 

[DubC-Hicks]

I'll make sure to check for the lanyard loop hole, and to check the extractor. Is there anything else in particular to look for?

Also, could you give a brief history on the Bulgarian Luger's? I found some info on them, but never quite figured out why they were sent there, or what they were used for or what they've been through.

Thank you!

 

[spacecoast]

There was also a Bulgarian lion proof on the right side of the receiver, but that likely has also been removed.

Prior to WWI, Germany's DWM (Deutsche Waffen-und Munitions Fabriken) was the lone manufacturer of Lugers (where they were known as Parabellum pistols, Luger is an American nickname). The Swiss military was the first country to officially adopt the Parabellum, in 1900, and DWM didn't sell to the German military until 1904 (I believe the Navy was the first to adopt it). In addition, DWM engaged in contracts with other countries, one of those being Bulgaria, who were shipped three separate contracts - in 1903 (1,000 Old Model 1900 Lugers in 7.65mm), 1908 (600-800 New Model 1906 Lugers in 7.65mm) and 1910-11 (~"10,000" Model 1908 Lugers in 9mm). The exact numbers shipped are still in some doubt as the original records were destroyed and we only have the guns and their serial numbers to guide us today. The 1900 and 1906 Model Bulgarians had beautiful chamber crest stamps, but it's the Model 1908 that had the most unique features, including the Cyrillic characters, the lanyard loop, the displaced DWM logo on the chamber, etc.

The early contract Lugers are a fascinating study, and are my primary area of interest (especially the Bulgarian contracts). The 1908 Bulgarians, manufactured in 9mm Luger, were used in the two Balkan wars of 1912-13 as well as WWI and WWII (those that survived). The earlier models were also used and were often rebarreled to 9mm as well. Most likely, all of the Bulgarian Lugers were issued to officers as sidearms. Seeing as much action as they did, they were used hard and were often refurbished and rebarreled, and Bulgarian Lugers in excellent original condition are extremely rare (such as, you can count them on one or two hands). Like I said, those that survived WWII were in such bad shape that they were mostly parted out and you can find Bulgarian frames, receivers and extractors scattered all over the place wherever needed to make a shooter functional again. I've even seen guns that consisted of a 1908 Bulgarian frame and a 1906 Bulgarian receiver.

By the way, lugerforum.com is also an excellent forum and resource and shares many members with luger.gunboards.com.

 

[DubC-Hicks]

I finally got the Luger in hand. First thing I checked was the extractor. It does have what appears to be Bulgarian markings on it. The frame serial number is 2687, and slide serial number is 632. Most small parts are marked "27", the trigger is marked "28". On the rear of the frame, on the right side, opposite the safety, there is a 3 in a box, and what appears to be a 20 in a double box.

Any more info on this pistol would be amazing. I'm very interested now that it doesn't appear to be a run of the mill commercial Luger.

 

[Quentin2]

Sounds like yours is a candidate for ultimate mixmaster!

My first P.08 Luger, bought in 1975, had numbered parts from at least 15 different pistols. DWM toggle, DWM frame with S/42 (Mauser) receiver. I was a starving student so jumped on this ultra cheap ugly duckling. Good thing, that P.08 shot like a champ and still does. Over the years I did get a 1913 DWM receiver&barrel and S/42 toggle so can morph the pistol from WWI to WWII. Either configuration works and has parts from 15+ pistols.

You hear mixed parts Lugers are unreliable but that's not always the case. I hope yours works well. If not, some parts may need fitting.

Grab some Mec-Gar magazines for shooting to preserve the value of the original that shouldn't be rebuilt.

 

[DubC-Hicks]

Is there any way to tell if the magazine is correct? It has no markings, and has an aluminum (I believe) floorplate

 

[spacecoast]

For a gun with mixed parts, the "correct" magazine is less meaningful - when this gun was first shipped, it had one (likely two) walnut bottom magazines, one numbered 2687 and the other 2687+ I believe. The numbers were larger and ran parallel to the cartridges with the early DWM magazines rather than the orientation you will see with most Lugers of later military vintage. These guns were built for the Bulgarian military, but were marked in the "commercial" style, with less prominent serial numbers on the bottom of the side plate and the takedown lever, rather than on the side where they are readily seen. The Gunbroker pictures don't really show whether they are marked that way and matching (many are replacements). If original, the safety lever would also have a small "87" on its top surface perpendicular to the frame.

With Lugers, one or two matching (matching numbered) magazine(s) of the correct type is a big deal, but there is a lot of magazine shaving and renumbering that occurs to achieve this, sometimes with comical results. So technically, this magazine is certainly not original and not "correct", but not a big deal seeing how the gun is a shooter. It's fine to use in the gun and not nearly as susceptible to breakage as the wood bottom magazines.

Chances are your gun has been refinished at least twice. The 632 on the receiver was applied in the military style during one rework as a Bulgarian contract gun did not have this originally. The "3" and "20" on the right side frame ear is often seen as a result of the Erma post-war (maybe 1960s) rework that resulted in the Bulgarian markings being removed. A shame really, as they had nothing to do with the later Communist government of Bulgaria.

One other note - several parts of the gun - trigger, takedown lever, safety lever, ejector bar and magazine release - were originally "strawed" - essentially in the white and heated to have a yellowish tinge. You could strip the bluing from these and even restraw them to make the gun look more like its original form if you feel like it. Bluing can be removed from small parts by soaking in white vinegar and rubbing with a toothbrush.

If the extractor still has Cyrillic writing, you might want to look around for a replacement. It's a tough call, as presumably it's been refinished as well and is not quite as desirable, but an original Bulgarian extractor is probably worth 150 to 200 bucks alone to the right person who needs one.

Cool pistol - and certainly not "run of the mill". Most Bulgarian Lugers had a long wartime service record, and were "rode hard and put up wet".

 

[DubC-Hicks]

Awesome, thank you very much. That was more info than I could ever hope to find just wandering around the internet.

I'll be checking the bottom of the side plate and top of the safety when I get home tonight.

Also, my trigger seems to catch right before the break. As I pull the trigger, I can watch the trigger bar on the left side come out, then catch, right as its about to break. I can then let off the trigger and the bar will stay there. Appears there's a rough spot on the top of the bar channel. Is it normal, or is there any way to remove the bar and smooth it out?

 

[spacecoast]

Also, my trigger seems to catch right before the break. As I pull the trigger, I can watch the trigger bar on the left side come out, then catch, right as its about to break. I can then let off the trigger and the bar will stay there. Appears there's a rough spot on the top of the bar channel. Is it normal, or is there any way to remove the bar and smooth it out?

It's certainly possible to remove the sear bar and check for any debris or roughness on it or the channel in which it operates. Once you have done a field strip on the gun and the toggle assembly has been removed from the receiver, there is a flat spring with a hook on the end to the rear of the sear bar that holds it in place. Carefully grab that hook with a small screwdriver and lift up on it slightly, and slide the spring toward the sear bar. Sometimes the springs have some congealed grease or other junk under them that makes them difficult to move, so some lubrication may help. Once that spring is out the sear bar should pop right out of the receiver. Cleaning that area thoroughly may help the stickiness issue you are seeing with the trigger.

You can never really expect a "nice" trigger feel with a Luger - it's just not part of the design. Funny thing about the Luger is that it can be operated as a single shot firearm without using the frame/trigger at all. Once the toggle is cycled and a round chambered, just press on the end of the sear bar and the firing pin will be released. By the way, this is NOT RECOMMENDED, just information only.

 

[James K]

"By the way, this is NOT RECOMMENDED, just information only."

The "rumor" is that the recoil is kind of nasty and tends to jerk the gun out of the hand; a glove is recommended or else keep the Band-Aids® handy.

Jim

 

[DubC-Hicks]

I don't think we have to worry about me trying to single shot a slide only

I've put about 100 rounds through it so far. 8 rounds of aluminum federal 115gr. And then the rest was perfecta 115gr. It choked a bit on the Federal the day I got it, but I'm going to say it was because it still had quite a bit of cosmoline in it. I did a quick wipedown and had to put a Mag through it since I knew it'd be a few days till I could shoot it again.

Tried out the perfecta today after a real field strip and cleanup and it chugged away pretty well. Only one hangup fail to feed, all it took was a tap on the toggle.

I've got to learn to not shoot the reset on this thing. You've got to completely let the trigger back out for it to reset, even then it doesn't always seem like it wants to immediately. Seems somewhat sluggish.

I'm extremely happy with it though. It's been a grail gun as long as I can remember, along with an M1 carbine I got a few weeks ago and a Garand I found last year

 

[Quentin2]

Sounds like it's a good shooter! Pretty nice to check off three on your "must buy" list in one year. I got two over the last year, an M1A and AR-10A.