Increase power level to reduce limp-wrist failures?

[5whiskey]

Guys the question is just that. My 10 and 12 year old daughters have been shooting for years now. My 12 year old has taken to my favorite past time and gotten quite good now (10 year old is another story), but I must constantly remind her to lock her wrists. She can't empty a 15 round magazine in my BDE without havinat least one stoppage, and usually about 3. I can dump 200 rounds of the same load with never a failure.

So, originally I made some pretty mild rounds but I'm thinking that a little bit of a warmer load will help the gun cycle when my daughter shoots it. I'm confident she can handle 9mm mid-load recoil as she can shoot my 1911 in 45 fairly well. She prefers the baby eagle because its almost half the weight and fatigue is less an issue. What do you guys think? Hotter load in order?

 

[Jim Watson]

Less recoil spring, maybe.

How light a load? I was only able to take 9mm for a P225 to 88%.

 

[shootniron]

Tip that might help, is to get a common squeeze clamp and have her squeeze open, hold it, and slowly release it several times each day for about a week...it will make a lot of difference in grip strength, quickly...and you will be surprised at how the limp wristing will go away.

 

[higgite]

Try loading only 5 rounds in the magazine at a time. 15 shots in a row without a brief rest may just be too many for her at this time. Increasing the power level may even make it worse.

 

[mrdaputer]

I agree with Higg load less rounds and have them switch out mags. I am will to bet their grouping will improve I am thinking a hotter load would be more recoil and cause more issues.

 

[Chainsaw.]

What kind od stance is she shooting from? The classic "chick" stance as I call it (I know, not PC) can be problematic is thats whats going on. Shoulders forward, over the toes will help put some resistance into her arms and should help a bit. She will probably need to take breaks a little more often but with a little time her strength should come along and full mags shouldnt be an issue.

What kind of pistol and how many rounds through it? A well worn in pistol will obviously bee more forgiving of limp wristing.

Only you can decide if she is ready for hotter ammo but I think you should focus on fundamentals (stance, grip etc) before you try to bandaid the situation.

On a separate note its great to hear she is enjoying it. Take her to a steel challenge match or something along those lines.

 

[g.willikers]

The fingers and wrists are the last joints in the line up of what keeps a pistol running.
Forearms, elbows, shoulders, chest muscles and stance probably count for more.
Dads love to teach their kids shooting, but sometimes, (usually), a genuine instructor is much better.

 

[5whiskey]

Good suggestions. I am a firearms instructor. I know she's my daughter and I'm biased, so I understand that a disinterested 3rd party could be of benefit. I'm just not willing to pay for professional instruction when I can provide it, only for the sake of paying an unbiased instructor. Criticize me if you wish, but that is my decision.

Her stance and fundamentals are pretty good. When she's on she can shoot 2-3" groups at 7 yards. Honestly I think you guys are on the money about having her shoot shorter strings. We often can only go once a month, so I try to pack as much in as I can. I think the mistake is going less often and trying to put 200+ rounds down range with her. She always wants to keep going, but I can tell she's dealing with fatigue after about 5 magazines or so. She will still have a failure here and there when we start out, but it gets worse as the range session goes on.

I'm still going to try a hotter load with her, mostly because I know she can handle it, but you guys are probably on point about the main issue being other factors besides the load.

 

[Jimro]

As an instructor I'm sure you understand the value of having someone else give a differential diagnosis for a shooters issues.

My recommendation is to go back to a 22 and focus on fundamentals. Not that a 10 year old can't handle a 9mm, just that odds are the CZ 75 clone is probably a bit big for her hands, and contrary to your assessment the recoil is probably a little too much which is why she is limp wristing it, to absorb some more of the snap.

I think that a 1911 in 45 is actually a lot easier for smaller framed individuals to handle the recoil because it is "smoother" than a lot of the 9mm pistols which is "snappier" (although a Beretta 92 also seems to be really smooth too in my opinion).

So...let her do the bulk of her work on the rimfires getting more accurate faster, and then "have fun" with the BDE when she feels like it. At her age it is too easy to build in bad habits that are very very hard to unlearn. 100 rounds per training session of rimfire is definitely worth more than 50 rounds of 9mm, whether it is knocking down steel or working on groups.

Jimro

 

[reynolds357]

Not being smart or disrespectful, but keep things as is. It will teach her to break a bad habit. In shooting, we break bad habits; we do not accommodate the habits.

 

[shootniron]

Not being smart or disrespectful, but keep things as is. It will teach her to break a bad habit. In shooting, we break bad habits; we do not accommodate the habits.

Wasted bandwidth...some folks are just set on doing it their way...only.

 

[JeepHammer]

I don't see the point in 'Bulking Up' a 10 or 12 year old kid so they can shoot a firearm that's clearly too big for them...

How about .22lr or .380 firearms for the smaller folks/women?
My wife has issues with 'Man Guns', small frame .380 or .22lr and shell shoot all day.

She will shoot a .22 air gun until we run out of C02 & pellets.
She will shoot her little 1911 style .380 (Colt Mustang) until she gets tired of loading mags.

She will shoot a couple mags in my double stack 9mm and have a bruise on the top of her right thumb, her hands are simply too small to grip a double stack correctly.

She will shoot the .22lr target revolver (old style small grip) until we are out of ammo.

If it jolted/thumped me until I was bruised, I wouldn't enjoy it either...
And we all know practice is about sight alignment & getting comfortable with the firearm,
Sometimes the firearm doesn't cooperate!

About 'Chick' shooting,
It's been my experience good, CALM instruction in stance while learning not to be afraid of noise/recoil/firearm comes to bear fruit when they start concentrating on hitting the target and Practiced enough they aren't thinking about the hunk of metal anymore.
They start to 'Lean Into' the target & hitting something...

My wife is 'Pidgon Toed' to top everything else off,
Her stance looks a little funny, but she shoots well & you can't argue with results!

 

[buck460XVR]

She can't empty a 15 round magazine in my BDE without havinat least one stoppage, and usually about 3. I'm confident she can handle 9mm mid-load recoil as she can shoot my 1911 in 45 fairly well. She prefers the baby eagle because its almost half the weight and fatigue is less an issue. What do you guys think? Hotter load in order?

If she shoots the 1911 well, I assume she has no problems with limp-wristing it? If that is the case it may be the fatter grip of the BDE along with small hands makes for a weak grip and the problem. I'd find a good soft shooting load for the 1911 and not worry about the stoppages with the BDE until she is bigger/stronger. Going to the range should be fun. I'd be more concerned with the girls enjoying the shoot than the amount of rounds put downrange. I have two grand-daughters just getting into shooting. We spend more time puttin' up water balloons and other reactive targets than we do shooting. We use a lot of swinger type targets(steel gongs, bowling pins/blocks of wood hanging from a Sheppard's Hook) and take breaks whenever I see the girls having a hard time holding up the firearms. Sometimes it's just a matter of putting the handguns away and bringing out the .22 rifles and letting them use bags/rests.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...get a common squeeze clamp..." Likely too big for a kid. Half a rubber ball on the, um, other hand is not. However, I'd bet the BDE is just too big for her.
"...About 'Chick' shooting..." Far easier teaching women or girls than it'll ever be teaching guys. And you do not "break" bad habits. You change 'em.

 

[JeepHammer]

Breaking 'Cowboy' or 'Gangster' movie habits are almost impossible.
Women & children are a dozen times easier than some cabbage head that sits and agrees with everything you point out, then going right back to what they were doing...

*Might* be 'Daddy' has tunnel vision when it comes to his little girl,
AND *Young* daughters want so badly to please 'Daddy' they won't complain when something is difficult for them...

At first my girlfriend (now wife) wouldn't say a word about what was bothering her, and it took me a while to notice she would shoot about anything other than my handgun.
Then she got a glove she didn't use on anything else...
It FINALLY sunk into my thick head that just because I was letting her shoot my handgun (no one else on earth got that 'Privilage) that it actually didn't fit her and was causing discomfort/pain...

*I* had purchased two or three (double stack) 9mm pistols *For Her*.

I finally took her to the largest gun show in the state and turned her loose to get any firearm (pistol) she liked...
Spent nearly an entire day, fingered every handgun in the place,
Picked a Colt Mustang in .380, single stack & didnt 'Thump' her every time she fired it.
She also picked out a .44 Ruger stainless steel muzzle loading revolver!

Said the grips fit her on both, shoots, cleans & maintains both to this day.

 

[RC20]

I certainly don't have a problem with a parent instructor, my dad and mom taught me to shoot.

That said I think there is too much emphasis on round counts and keeping up with Dad. Change the narrative.

In that regard, maybe it would be better to go with a 38 Special revolver?.

The grips are small, wad cutters would be more hand-lable, reloads occur every 6 round giving a break and you do a target assessment giving a break.

If she steadily gets worse as a session goes on the session is too long.

Other thoughts are to shift from the 9mm if she is shooing it well to a 22 or the 38 at some PRE designated point.

To be kept in mind are young bones and repetitive stress injuries as well. Put it in those terms. A standard has been set and a graceful way to lower it down. Put it in the terms, its my fault, I have let you go to far and its my responsibility to ensure you are not hurting yourself.

I wracked my wrist one time, it took 15 years before it was back to normal. I wound up cutting boards left handed.

Long term look into the guns that offer grip choices. HK is excellent.

Wrist exercises might be in order but not to the point of overdoing it, slow steady muscle build up.

 

[5whiskey]

So I appreciate feedback, that's why I posted here. We are in a reloading forum, so I'm not going into the depths of how to train a shooter. She is not a new shooter, and if we go to a public range she will shoot better groups than at least half the grown men there. Others are eager to tell us that as well.

At any rate, we test fired a few rounds with a mid-light hs6 load today. No stoppage with her shooting, she grouped well, and didn't complain about recoil. She will tell me if she doesn't like recoil, as she has several times before. I personally believe the issue is that my mild 700x loads will just barely cycle the slide when I'm shooting. I can obviously apply much more resistance to recoil than my 12 year old daughter. So what would just barely cycle the slide when I shoot... Well, it won't when she does.

 

[Stats Shooter]

5whisky:

My wife had the same problem with a Walther .380 auto 1911 type gun. With soft shooting "target" loads, she had at least 1 or 2 failure to extract or failure to feed malfunctions on every single mag. With self defense type higher velocity loads, she had no such issue. I on the other hand had no issues when I fired the same gun with the same target loads.
My wife is a decent shot and can put everything in the 10 ring on a silhouette target at 20 yards but something about her stance/arm/shoulder caused malfunctions.

So I bought her a Glock 19..... Never happened again.

FIFW, you may try limp wristing the gun to see if you can make it malfunction.

 

[5whiskey]

My wife had the same problem with a Walther .380 auto 1911 type gun. With soft shooting "target" loads, she had at least 1 or 2 failure to extract or failure to feed malfunctions on every single mag. With self defense type higher velocity loads, she had no such issue. I on the other hand had no issues when I fired the same gun with the same target loads.

I noticed the same thing today, although my 9mm loads are probably softer than your average target load. WWB ammo recoils a little harder. Come to think of it... My daughter had no issues that I can recall with WWB last time she shot is (this past summer I believe).

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Get her a revolver and shoot .38 sp. Great practice for trigger control in DA and just all around fun. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.