In international waters can you make NFA guns?

[barnetmill]

I have always wondered, if in international waters, could a person legally make a full auto as long as the gun never entered the US?

Maritime law is something that I do not understand. Maybe someone else out there does know?

I think probably not if the boat is registered in USA.

 

[shaggy]

Maritime law is not my baliwick, but I'm sure you couldn't bring it back into the US once converted in international waters. Perhaps, however, the first question should be whether you can even take a gun from the US into international waters. Without a destination in a foreign country I don't know for sure if you would still need an export permit and approval by the State department, but I would assume so.

 

[CypherNinja]

I've always wondered what would happen if some filthy rich nutbar went and bought a couple a tankers or something, strapped em together, and started his own "island" nation.

 

[Wrangler5]

(Sorry for duplicate posting - thought I caught it before it went through. Next one is what I wanted to ask.)

 

[Wrangler5]

An interesting hypothetical question. But don't you have to hit a port SOME time, at least for food and fuel? If civilians could buy nuclear reactors for their private vessels they might avoid the fuel problem, but ya' still gotta' eat. If you pulled into a US port with an illegal NFA weapon on board, fueled up and bought food but never took the gun off the ship, would that amount to "importing" or some other violation of law? Would it make a differece if you were not a US citizen and it was not a US flag ship? (I've got to believe that there are foreign ships that routinely call at US ports with NFA weapons aboard somewhere, without encountering ATF problems.)

 

[barnetmill]

There is some legal catch about documenting the equipment on board that can include firearms. I have been told, at about 10 years ago that there were US flagged yachts that had a belt fed machine gun aboard. I assume (but do not know for sure) that these had their ATF tax stamps. Remember, in these cases we are talking about very rich and well connected people. For example there is a very well known case of a chinese business man that was well connected with Mr. Clinton and imported a hugh quantity of full auto AKs into a warehouse in CA. He apparentyl was warned prior to the police arrests of his underlings.
Also getting hijacked and murdered for you vessel use to be and perhaps still is very common a little south of the USA which is an incentive for the very rich to arm themselves.

I believe (but I am not sure) that all firearms that may be on a boat when it reaches a port have to be declaired to customs here or in any other country .

The initial question was not coming back to a USA port with a homemade machine gun. You would do your experiment and then either toss it overboard or return it to its original configuration.

By the way the question was hypothetical and I have no boat that could safely sail off-shore. The coast guard also seems to have the authority to stop any vessel and inspect (search) it at will anywhere for contraband and then detain the ship for violation of law.

 

[rha600]

even more curious what could happen to you if you commit any crime off shore and in international waters? and on top of that who would be the one to enforce it?

 

[Handy]

I'm reminded of the Congressman who went out beyond 3 miles to smoke a joint for some perspective on the drug laws. He violated no laws.


Here's the problem: You can't "make" a machinegun in the US. You also can't import one. The ATF's position is that once a machinegun, always a machinegun. So you couldn't bring it back with you.


The way around this would be creating a drop in auto sear while at sea, declaring that it's the machinegun (per ATF rules) and using it in your legal semiauto, then throwing only that part away before you came back.


I have wondered before how the laws work with stuff on a ship. Surely every doo-dad and drug doesn't have to be importable to the US for a ship to come into a US port. I would think more than one merchant ship is sporting some anti-piracy protection of the full auto variety.

 

[TexasSIGMan]

IIRC Adnan Khashoggi lived on his yacht in international waters for several years due to some legal problems. He did NOT have to return to port, he had a vessel tender that shuttled food, water, fuel and supplies out to his yacht.

I think Donald trump bought his boat but I can't remember for sure.

As (at the time) the largest arms dealer on the planet, I doubt he was unarmed out there in the middle of the water....

As mentioned above, all it takes is money.

 

[newerguy]

I don't know for sure, but I thought that if your a US Flagged ship, are you bound by US laws while on the high seas?

 

[bdc]

Want a legal answer - ask the corner auto mechanic

Oh come on guys. There is no 3 mile limit anymore. There hasn't been for some time.

There are a series of international conventions and treaties of which you are not aware and just speculate.

In the 1930s, some wise guys put a gambling ship 3 miles off the California coast. Same bs. Were busted.
Ship leaves Columbia with dope. It is stopped hundreds of miles out to sea. Hmmm.

I have to admit that this is more entertaining than the usual question of when you can kill someone and not be punished. It is also more entertaining than asking if doing your own reloads subjects you to more liability in court.

Now I have another consideration. Whenever you go to court, just assume that the CIA, FBI and local police know that you have posted on every gun-related board and will use that against you in a court of law.

 

[SBrocker8]

CIA isn't involved with domestic law enforcement.

 

[Trapp]

Oh come on guys. There is no 3 mile limit anymore. There hasn't been for some time.

There sure is. Along with a 12 mile to 24 mile limit, not to mention the 200 mile EEZ.

On the high seas, US vessels are subject to US laws. Between 12 and 24 miles there is the Contigency Zone. Any vessels US or not are subject to a customs search.

The 200 EEZ is for fisheries purposes only, though all US vessels are subject to US law, still.

 

[Chaingunner]

Barnetmill says
"By the way the question was hypothetical and I have no boat that could safely sail off-shore. The coast guard also seems to have the authority to stop any vessel and inspect (search) it at will anywhere for contraband and then detain the ship for violation of law."

Any Naval vessel (of any country, apparently) holds the power called A Warship's Right To Visit, which is exactly what it sounds like. It's a useful thing when you suspect a dhow or yacht or whatever of carrying illegal cargo.

 

[erh]

As, among other things, A former "US Coastie"; L.E./ tactical type.. I will say that ANY U.S. Vessel ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD..! is liable for the laws of our land. Someone mentioned 2 & 12 miles, etc... The U.S. enforces out to 200 miles of ANY of our shores, territories or protectorates. (Many a mile if you think about it!) And as of late it seems... about anywhere we D_mn well please...! You know; all that "Big guy/ Big Stick stuff...!" HOO-RAH..!
Anyway..

Best to ALL.,

(erh)

P.S. - Regarding US Naval Vessels that perform "Boardings"; they are almost certainly "Flying a USCG Ensign" (Flag..) at the highest point on the highest mast, and have at least 1 "Coastie" boarding officer on the boarding crew. This is (at least used to be..) the way to avoid Laws against US Military Forces performing Civilian Law Enforcement, etc... Makes the USN vessel "Officially/ Temporarily" a USCG Vessel & crew. I DON"T know if this even applies anymore, truth be known..! So this all MAY be a "Once Upon A Time sorta thing anyway!

 

[Chaingunner]

erh says

"P.S. - Regarding US Naval Vessels that perform "Boardings"; they are almost certainly "Flying a USCG Ensign" (Flag..) at the highest point on the highest mast, and have at least 1 "Coastie" boarding officer on the boarding crew. This is (at least used to be..) the way to avoid Laws against US Military Forces performing Civilian Law Enforcement, etc... Makes the USN vessel "Officially/ Temporarily" a USCG Vessel & crew. I DON"T know if this even applies anymore, truth be known..! So this all MAY be a "Once Upon A Time sorta thing anyway!"

Negative. USN vessels perform boardings all the time...Although the Naval base at Manama, Bahrain maintains several of those little Coastie boats whose main job it is to intercept gun/drug/people runners. ANYWAY. Destroyers, Cruisers, and Frigates are the ships most likely to provide some VBSS (that's Visit, Board, Search, and Siezure) personnel to suspicious looking boats. I'd love to be on a VBSS team but my ship doesn't maintain one (rats). You all may have heard about the Navy capturing a pirate vessel a few weeks ago; the catch was made by a USN destroyer (though I confess i can't remember which one).