IMR4064 in 7.5 Swiss and other surplus rifles

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5whiskey

New member
So with my deployment over soon it’s time to look to stocking my reloading supplies. Powder looks a little scarce online, but a few things are available here and there. My go-to for almost all mil surp calibers is H4895... a very forgiving powder with a wide range of uses. Alas, that’s pretty hard to come by.

So I’m looking and it looks like imr 4064 is quite popular for old battle rifle loads, and I see load data for .303, 8x57, 30-06 (and it’s garand friendly). I see no current data listed for 7.5 Swiss and imr 4064 though. I’ve found plenty of online forum references indicating it’s good to go, and even references that hodgdon has published load data in the past for this powder/caliber. Also odd enough there is no 7.7 Jap listed, but I’ll use .303 data for that.

Anyone here used IMR 4064 for 7.5 Swiss? What was your impression? Good to go?
 
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ligonierbill

New member
I have not tried IMR-4064 in the Swiss, but I have used it for 8x57. Should be OK as a medium burn rate powder. That said, I have gone to Reloder 17 for 7.5x55, 8x57, and some bullets in 30-06. It is the only powder I have found that will match the GP11 ammo with a similar weight bullet. (I load 175 Sierra MatchKing.) Best powder for 8x57 loading 175 Sierra Pro Hunter. Your results may vary, and I think 4064 should work for you. But if you can, find some Re-17.
 
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Unclenick

Staff
Hornady has loads for it for all their appropriate bullet weights. Pages 470-473 of the #10 manual. If you email them and ask for data for just one chambering, they may well send it to you. Sierra does, and I expect Hornady to want to be competitive regarding customer service.
 
5

5whiskey

New member
Thank you gents. I should probably add this may be a non issue. I have several loading manuals at home that probably list a load. Just being OCONUS for now kneecaps my research some.

Bill, funny you should mention R17 I actually have looked for some. Alas I’m trying to make one order for powder to save in shipping and hazmat, and grafs actually has most everything I wanted in stock except 4895. So 4064 it is, seems like.
 
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valleyforge.1777

New member
Do NOT use 303 Brit data for 7.7x58 Japanese!

It is not a good idea to use 303 data for loading 7.7x58 Japanese for the T99 Arisaka rifles despite what some otherwise respectable say on forums including this one (TFL). 7.7 is not the "ballistic twin" of the .303.
The cases are different sizes and the data is NOT interchangeable. I have successfully loaded over 1,000 rounds of 7.7 with IMR-4064, and there IS good data in older Lyman manuals and in LEE 2nd edition. You can look at post #6 in this TFL thread from 2017 for specific data for IMR 4064 for 7.7x58 Japanese:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587334

The 7.7x58 Japanese for the T99 Arisaka rifles is much closer to the 8 mm Mauser than it is to the 303 British. The Japanese took the German 8 mm Mauser and necked it down to the 7.7 caliber (.312 diameter) bullets they were already using for their MGs.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
Data in my old Lyman book (1970s) shows a fairly consistent difference of about 9-10% (about 4 grains) between the .303 Brit and the 7.7 Jap, with all the IMR powders they listed. Their .303 data is about 10% LIGHT for 7.7mm Jap loads.

Considering that, if you use that data as a starting point and work up your 7.7 loads in the proper fashion, you shouldn't have any problems.

The 7.7x58 Japanese for the T99 Arisaka rifles is much closer to the 8 mm Mauser than it is to the 303 British.
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The 7.7mm Arisaka CASE is very similar to the German 8x57. The load in it, it not. Same bullets as the .303 British at approximately the same speed. Uses a little more powder than the .303 to get the same results, because the case volume is a little bigger. Both are less than the German 8mm Mauser pressure and velocities.
 
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BJung

New member
Better powder

From my readings, R17 is the same powder as used in the GP11. Berger 175grain bullets should shoot well in the Swiss Rifles.

Swiss Products makes a nice accessory. I grumbled about the price at first but after I mounted it, I was glad I made the purchased. I mounted a used Weaver with faded bluing to match the rifle. What dies are you using. Someone on the CCR Forum was comparing reloading dies for the cartridge. Check that out.

Do a search online for the Swiss Rifle Club in California. They have a dedicated range and club for the rifle. I'm sure they have a lot of information for you.
 
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RC20

New member
R17 is the same powder as what GP11 uses, but if you can't get it?

I will review my loads and see if I did any in 4064 (I have some but it was no IMR)
 
5

5whiskey

New member
Data in my old Lyman book (1970s) shows a fairly consistent difference of about 9-10% (about 4 grains) between the .303 Brit and the 7.7 Jap, with all the IMR powders they listed. Their .303 data is about 10% LIGHT for 7.7mm Jap loads.

Considering that, if you use that data as a starting point and work up your 7.7 loads in the proper fashion, you shouldn't have any problems.
Click to expand...

44amp that was my point. 7.7 Jap data for .303 is a no-go, but the other way around is generally safe if you are smart about what you're doing. It gets a decent starting point.

R17 is around I'm sure somewhere. I just wanted to order a variety of things from Grafs to combine shipping. Grafs is the one place that sort of had most of what I wanted or was usable for my needs in stock, except any 4895 (or R17). They had IMR 4064 in stock, and it looks like it will fit my needs. I load 7.7, 8mm, 7.5 Swiss, and .30-06 for surplus rifles... about to add .303 and maybe 7.62x54r to the mix. I'm not really a "one powder must do it all" kind of guy, but most of the old battle rifle cartridges are similar enough in character that there is really not much need to have 4 different powders for 5 different cartridges.

FWIW I have loaded 7.5 with H4895 and H414. I have a couple of good loads and have some of both powders left, I'm just trying to increase the component supply. I have a good bit of H414 but I feel it better suited for warmer loads (non-garand .30-06, 8x57).


Gents I'm not looking for specific loads per se. I thought the powder was suitable, heck it should be as 7.5 Swiss is a similar class of cartridge to so many others that offer loadings in IMR 4064. I just couldn't find any published data online, and I'm away from my loading manuals. I just wanted a quick confirmation. Thanks to all who have replied.

Hornady has loads for it for all their appropriate bullet weights.
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Uncle Nick thank you so much for that. I have a Lee and Lyman manual, and pieces of an older Sierra manual given to me. There's probably something in there, I'll find out when I get home.
 
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ernie8

New member
I-4064 is an excellent powder for the 7.5mm Swiss . 44.5 grains with a 168 MK bullet is close to the sights and was always in the running for the small group of the match in a K-31 . The current RL-17 was not even made before Swiss military GP-11 production quit . IT is not the powder used in GP-11 . A Swiss match director friend of mine said the RL-17 myth started on the US internet , they do not think that over there .
 
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BJung

New member
Find Information

Like I said earlier, look for the Club in CA. It's called The Swiss Rifle Club. Their email contact address is MoCoSRC@gmail.com. If anyone is going to give you the best advice it's them. I never had the opportunity to talk to them. My information is based on what I've read on the internet. I owned a K31 and two 1911 before they burned up in the Santa Rosa fire. The fire got so hot, engine blocks melted.

Yes, 4064 can work, I'm looking at it right now in my Hornady Reloading Manual. So does at least 5 more powders listed here. I tried 4064 in my Enfield years ago. But, 3031 worked better. I think some powders work better than others. Do you guys have anything else to say?
 
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lonniemike

New member
Check out the SwissRifles.com site for some of Pierre's accuracy recipe loads using 4064 and other powders. Any 308 recipe can work. Be safe, work up. BestAll
 
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ernie8

New member
The Cal club is run by the guy who said to use the I-4064 load . The best load he has used here and in all the Swiss matches . For the ultimate accuracy , using loads from cartridges that just have a few things in common is not the best way to go . The 7.5mm and .308 have a similar bores size and can both use .308 dia bullets , but they have different bore area , were originally loaded with different type bullets , different case capacity , different case shape , different pressure limits . Are you loading with GP-11 bullets or .308 bullets , or .308 VLD bullets . All of these things will be a factor . How many Swiss national competitions has Pierre been a top finisher in , or even shot in ?
 
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lonniemike

New member
Pierre,Zero, and Zero. A 308/7.62 load shot in a Swiss 11 or 31 chamber will be at a lower pressure and travel at about the same velocity. Gp11 designed in 1908 shot it's "original" 174 grain projectile at2500fps in a Swiss k1911(w/23" barrel) and 2650fps in a Swiss g1911(w/31" barrel), which Hatcher and the US copied in the 1920's, with the Swiss's blessings. In 1937 the Swiss's new and very strong actioned k31 shoots the same gp11 ammo at 2550 fps with it's 26" barrel. Amazingly, the US and NATO, in about 1954, produce a rifle and ammo that pushes a 175 grain projectile down a 26" tube goes about 2550fps same as the Swiss have been doing for over a century. Curiously, I wonder how the bore areas are different? Care to explain. Generally the same loads and projectiles that works well in 7.62 or 308 also works well in 7.5X55. I think I did say, be safe and work up. Check out SwissRifles.com BestAll
 
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