IMR 4227 problems

[Blue1]

I've posted this else where looking for an answer, maybe you guys can help.

I've tried some Magnum loads in .357 and .45 Colt (Ruger loads) and have run into problems with IMR 4227 powder.

The powder is not burning completely. I loaded 19.1 grains in a new Starline case with 300 grain XTP bullet at 1.650" OAL and only got 837 fps. I expected at least 1100 fps out of this load.

I noticed probably .2 to .4 grain of unburned powder in the cases, explaining the poor muzzle velocity. This was with Federal (large pistol) Magnum primers. Actually, standard Winchester primers were a few percent better than the Federal Magnum primers.

With the .357 Magnum loads, I used 19.0 grains of 4227 under a 125 grain XTP bullet at 1.600" OAL, again with a Federal Magnum (small pistol) primer. This resulted in 1285 fps, when data suggested 1450+ fps. This also left some unburned powder in the case.

I have previously only used Winchester standard primers in my .357 Mag loads with other powders and have gotten good results. Using identical loads with the Winchester standard primers and the 4227 powder, I again got slightly better velocity, but still with unburned powder in the case after firing.

I don't think it is a case of bad primers as I used Winchester standard large pistol and Federal Magnum large pistol in the Ruger with the Colt .45 loads and Winchester Standard and Federal Magnum small pistol primers in the .357 Magnum loads. Could it be that Federal Magnum primers just suck that bad?

The powder came out of a new sealed bottle, so I would be surprised if it was the powder.

Anyone else ever experience this or have some suggestions of what I should try? I figure I'll try some other brand large and small pistol Magnum primers and see if that lights the fire completely.

 

[Nick_C_S]

I don't load for 45 Colt - Ruger loads or otherwise. So I'm going to leave that alone.

I'm only going to speak to this:

With the .357 Magnum loads, I used 19.0 grains of 4227 under a 125 grain XTP bullet at 1.600" OAL, again with a Federal Magnum (small pistol) primer. This resulted in 1285 fps, when data suggested 1450+ fps. This also left some unburned powder in the case.

IMO, IMR 4227 is too slow for a 125gn bullet. I would expect incomplete combustion. I would only use a powder that slow with a 158gn bullet (or heavier); and even then, it would only be for my long barreled guns (6" minimum - lever action carbine preferred). It's just not building up enough pressure; and it's likely not going to - even if you increase the charge. A heavier slug would boost the pressure and bring the round more into balance.

When I load hot 125's, I'm using Power Pistol - or something else in that speed range (HS-6, Unique).

 

[buck460XVR]

IMR4227 is notorious for having a few unburned kernels. It works best with loads that are just at or slightly compressed. It also likes a heavy crimp to get a good burn. It also works best under heavy bullets. While I love IMR4227 in .44 mag and it is my go to powder in .460 mag, I don't use it much in .357. When I do it's under bullets of 158gr or more.

 

[mmb713]

4227 works best with heavier bullets. None of the magnum powders work very well with 125gr 357 Magnum loads and some aren't even paired with them in published data. I've only loaded 158gr JHPs and XTPs with 4227 in 357 Magnum.

4227 won't give velocities up with H110/296 or some of the other magnum powders but it is generally very accurate and velocity is still decent. The velocity difference will become less with heavier bullets. 4227 isn't temperature sensitive like H110/296 and will give the same velocities in the winter as it does in the summer. Some of my most accurate loads for my 45 Colt Blackhawk use 4227.

You will get some granular residue with it but it is not unburned powder, it's more like ash. The accuracy more than makes up for this characteristic for me. It's not my first choice for 357 Magnum but if it's all you can get it will keep you shooting near magnum level loads. I really like it in 45 Colt where it is one of my favorites.

Try increasing your charge with your 300gr XTPs. You're around start levels right now. 4227 works best at or near max.

I use CCI350 and CCI550 primers in my loads and heavy roll crimps. Good luck with your loads.

 

[skizzums]

I don't have issue with 4227 in .357mag. that said, your velocities are amazingly low, even from a snub I would expect closer to 1400fps. only thing to try is a different(*edit: PRIMER) and a harder crimp to possibly help that powder burn.

 

[Blue1]

mmb713,

Hornady's data says max load with 300 XTP and 4227 is 19.5 grains for Ruger-only loads, so I was already near max at 19.0 grains.

I will try 19.5 grains and give it a tighter crimp and see if that gets the pressure where it needs to be.

 

[Hunter Customs]

I been loading 19.5 grs of IMR 4227 topped off with a 280 gr cast bullet in my 45 Colt loads, all my information says this is considered a Tier II load (21,000 PSI) and not a Ruger only load.

I been shooting the above load in my Colt clone revolvers, with no issues so far.
However I always see a little bit of what appears to be un-burnt powder in the barrels of my revolvers, I also see this in my 44 mag revolvers with maximum 44 mag loads.

I too seem to have best results using Winchester primers.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter

 

[Blue1]

HC, thanks for you comments.

280 gr cast bullet may create considerably less pressure than a 300 gr jacketed XTP, so I'm gonna be real careful.

I will probably try 20 gr with a heavy crimp and see how that works out.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I would 1st suggest a heavier crimp, rather than a heavier charge & crimp at the same time

... a heavier crimp will increase your chamber pressure... which is why I would not do both at the same time with near max loads...

BTW... I'd be using a Reading Profile crimp, or Lee factory crimp die, with a harder to burn powder like 4227

 

[1100 tac]

I have always seen a little unburned powder granules when using I4227.

In anything and everything and at all levels of loading, including rifle.

It was that way in 1975, and it still is.

Shoots pretty good though...

 

[44 AMP]

A quick check of three different manuals did not turn up any loads in .357 below 140gr bullet weight. There are loads for 158/160gr bullets.

When you see something like that (loads for heavier weights and not light ones) is means that something about the powder made it "unsuitable" for use with the light bullet.

Unsuitable does not just mean high pressure. Too slow a burn rate for efficiency applies, also. Erratic burn is another. Too wide a velocity spread, all these and probably some others make a powder unsuitable in a given round with a given bullet, while it can be perfectly satisfactory in a different cartridge and/or bullet weight.