Impressive side-by-side video

[jimpeel]

This compares the two reload and slide release methods. The first shows the thumb release of the slide and the second shows the overhand slide release method. The video is shown in regular and slo-mo. One of them is far more effective. Guess which one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dvvo7s-yK2k

 

[TunnelRat]

Both methods have merit and both should be practiced. I have a hard time with any instructor that determined a "right technique" when it comes to this endless debate.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

One of them is far more effective. Guess which one?

I couldn't get that video to work -- it kept going to the NEXT video about concealed carry. While I was there, however, I took the time to look at several other same-topic videos on YouTube, including one by Larry Vickers. A surprising number of folks say "X is best, 'cause that's the way I learned it..." That seems dumb, and ignores differences in gun function.

I agree with Vicker's suggested approach -- which is to use the offhand thumb to release the slide (if you're right-handed), but they make the point, that the best technique is GUN and SHOOTER dependent. Some guns, like the Beretta, as shown in the Vickers video, don't take well to the hand-over method -- as it's easy to decock the weapon if you're not careful.) As noted below, I don't always use the "Thumb" of the offhand, but do use fingers from that hand.

I would note, too, that the U.S. Military now teaches the slide-stop release as part of its handgun training. An acquaintance, Larry Brown, who has worked for years as a trainer with Special Ops troops at Ft. Bragg, says that is the approach used there. The change in training and practice was made after a lot of regular troops experienced failures of their guns to return cleanly to battery in combat situations; the situation wasmade worse by bad environmental conditions (dirt, sand, hot and cold temperatures), and the wide-spread use of gloves in the combat zone.

The biggest disadvantage I see to the OLDER STYLE slingshot approach, in which you grab the rear of the slide, pinching it like you hold the projectile in a slingshot, forces you to drop the gun away from the target and causes a major move of the weapon. That is very time-consuming, when time may be critical!

Releasing the slide cleanly, using the OLD style "slingshot" release is still a FINE MOTOR SKILL (but most proponents thought otherwise), and not doing it properly can lead to problems -- as we found in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't think many instructors now advocate the old Pinch/Pull/Release-style slingshot method.

The HAND-OVER approach is much better "slingshot" approach and unlike the "traditional/older" slingshot technique, doesn't force the shooter to take the gun dramatically away from the target. You can keep your eye on the target and the sights in that same general area!

Back when I was shooting more regularly, I found that the slide stop release worked best for me if I used several fingers of the off-hand instead of the off-hand thumb: that gave me a BIGGER (practically speaking) "finger" to find and depress the slide stop. The decision was made easier for me, since only the Glock 34 I sometimes shot allowed me to use the strong hand thumb without changing my grip... With most of my other guns, it wasn't even close to practical to use the strong-hand thumb.

 

[g.willikers]

Of course using the slide release method is the fastest of the two.
That's why it's mostly used for competition matches.
Unless it doesn't work.
Then the overhand method is needed, like for clearing jams and other malfunctions.
Unless, for numerous reasons, the shooter only has one hand to use.
Then other ways are needed.
Since there's no guarantee which one will be needed on any given day, it's always best to know and practice them all.

 

[1911Tuner]

Video

I couldn't get that video to work -- it kept going to the NEXT video about concealed carry.

I had the same problem, Walt. On the 3rd try, I used my cursor to drag it to the beginning. That worked.

 

[TunnelRat]

I would note, too, that the U.S. Military now teaches the slide-stop release as part of its handgun training. An acquaintance, Larry Brown, who has worked for years as a trainer with Special Ops troops at Ft. Bragg, says that is the approach used there. The change in training and practice was made after a lot of regular troops experienced failures of their guns to return cleanly to battery in combat situations; the situation wasmade worse by bad environmental conditions (dirt, sand, hot and cold temperatures), and the wide-spread use of gloves in the combat zone.

This seems sort of odd to me. On most handguns I find hitting the slide stop with gloves harder than grasping the slide and pulling it back to release. Of course the M9 has a honking big slide release, so that's definitely a factor.

But more so I don't see how using the slide stop would help with bad environment. If anything, when either doing the pinch or overhand method you're pulling the slide back and releasing it from a position further back than it would release from the slide stop. This additional compression that results on the recoil spring should impart more force on the slide to go back into battery. I would think that this means those methods are preferable to the slide stop in a bad environment. Unless maybe the soldiers were riding the slide forward and inducing malfunctions.

The biggest disadvantage I see to the OLDER STYLE slingshot approach, in which you grab the rear of the slide, pinching it like you hold the projectile in a slingshot, forces you to drop the gun away from the target and causes a major move of the weapon. That is very time-consuming, when time may be critical!

I'd have to say yes and no with this. A user should be able to pinch the slide and release it essentially in front of his or her face (though he/she may need to tilt the pistol in the hand slightly). I'm not sure it would necessarily have to result in dramatically more motion than the overhand technique.

 

[jimpeel]

The video is based on a well shooter who can function within the parameters given. There may be times where the shooter is incapacitated and cannot use the left hand. At those times one may have to use the method of racking the slide by sliding it down the side of their pants -- a technique developed by the Israelis for racking the slide when the off hand is incapacitated.

The method that works best is the method you should use. Practicing all of them is the most prudent regimen.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

One of them is far more effective. Guess which one?

Even after watching the video I can't guess which one is more effective. You haven't defined what you mean by "effective." Using the slide release is faster ... but only if it's a pistol you are familiar with and the slide release is located the same relative to your grip as whatever pistol you are accustomed to shooting. On the other hand, the slide is generally always on top and in the same relative location, regardless of what pistol you're shooting.

 

[TunnelRat]

Even after watching the video I can't guess which one is more effective. You haven't defined what you mean by "effective." Using the slide release is faster ... but only if it's a pistol you are familiar with and the slide release is located the same relative to your grip as whatever pistol you are accustomed to shooting. On the other hand, the slide is generally always on top and in the same relative location, regardless of what pistol you're shooting.

That's a good point. If you're prone to using pistols where the slide releases varies in its size, shape, and location than the overhand or slingshot methods are the Jacks of all trades. This might be important if you have a wide variety of defensive handguns or if you work with others with different firearms than yourself and may find the need to use each others' guns for defense.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

But more so I don't see how using the slide stop would help with bad environment. If anything, when either doing the pinch or overhand method you're pulling the slide back and releasing it from a position further back than it would release from the slide stop...

I don't know that the EXTRA distance pulled back is needed... or really adds much. If the slide has gone back far enough to strip the next round, that's arguably all it needs to do.

It think the reason environment was a factor in the decision is that a lot of the troops now wear gloves in combat. Unless they're working in really frigid areas, the glove are various types of shooting gloves, or gloves intended to protect the hands: sand is abrasive and rocks can be almost razor sharp.) Grasping and pulling the slide (if doing the OLD STYLE "pinch the rear of the slide") style slingshot release can be more cumbersome than expected, and doing it crisply -- while easy with ungloved hands -- seemed to be a problem for quite a few folks. The PINCH approach still requires good coordination.

The old argument was that hitting the slide stop was a "fine motor skill" while using the slingshot was a "gross motor skill." One of the gun mags did a MD-supervised test of both approaches, with the doctor giving the shooters a shot of epinephrine (or a similar stimulant it was a long time ago that I read about this -- and dosing them with coffee so that they "hyped" up like they would be with a big scare and the resulting adrenaline rush. They all had problems... and the slingshot offered no real advantages.​

All of this was done before the hand-over method became popular, but the DoD doesn't seem to be advocating that method. The Hand-over method might be less of a problem, but even then -- as the vickers vide shows -- you can decock a Beretta using that method. But with other guns the gloves and the sights can have a little conversation that keeps the action from being as crisp as it needs to be.

Using the offhand to release the slide is not hard, and while VICKERS recommends using the offhand thumb, I see a lot of guys making a "claw" out of the first three fingers and just pressing down. A glove wouldn't be an encumbrance that way. It's just a bit more movement after the mag is inserted, and the hand drops down naturally to assume the normal two-hand grip.

The thing to do is just try it yourself -- and then do what works best for you. Relying on theory and the old arguments may not be helpful.

 

[TunnelRat]

I don't know that the EXTRA distance pulled back is needed... or really adds much. If the slide has gone back far enough to strip the next round, that's arguably all it needs to do.

I don't think it's needed, I just think it's a possible plus to using that method if the slide or slide rails are gritty with sand and mud. I'd test it myself I just can't commit myself to the level of cleaning I'd need afterwards giving my OCD nature.

The thing to do is just try it yourself -- and then do what works best for you. Relying on theory and the old arguments may not be helpful.

Undoubtedly. I've tried all of them in classes and under timers and I feel like each has its merit. While I typically use the overhand method, using the slide release with the dominant thumb can be important for one handed reloads. Of course if it's your off hand and the pistols doesn't have an ambi slide release then having a rear sight with a ledge is important.

 

[jimpeel]

Even after watching the video I can't guess which one is more effective.

I guess the question is which method got more rounds downrange in the shortest period of time? The left hand video gets off six shots before the right hand video got off his fourth.

The right answer, however, is to try all methods; familiarize yourself with all of them; and use the one which is correct for the situation.

 

[JERRYS.]

fairly simple. the fewer motions/hands required, the quicker.

 

[jimpeel]

Overall, the very best method is to count your shots, and replace the magazine while there is still a round in the chamber eliminating the need to rack the slide. There are various methods of doing this. You can drop the mag if you know it is out, or retain the mag because you know it still has rounds in it but you need to assure you have a full mag in the firearm. Those decisions must be made, on the spot, in the heat of the moment.

 

[marine6680]

Some pistols do not have exposed slide stops, so you have no other option with them, other than the slide methods.

All the methods have pros and cons.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Overall, the very best method is to count your shots, and replace the magazine while there is still a round in the chamber eliminating the need to rack the slide.

If you're shooting in a USPSA match, that arguably works. But in IDPA, unless a "reload with retention" is specified, you're only allowed to do slide lock reloads -- or you retain the mag. (I've not shot USPSA or IPSC, but in the videos I've seen slide lock reloads seem to be the exception not the rule -- so I'm sure that informs your comments.)

In real world self-defense situations, with others around -- some of whom may be shooting at you, and others who may be WITH you and needing your guidance or protection -- you are just in it! It's all surprises.

Unlike matches, there's no explanation of the course of fire, no ability to plan your moves ahead of time. No understanding where cover can be found. No appreciate of where the TARGETS might be, or if there's more than one. It all just happens, QUICKLY. You have seek cover, help those with you, and do all of this while making assessment and, maybe, while firing your first shots. Talking about counting rounds in that situation is most likely fantasy.

The same demands for attention are there for G.I.s in combat. If the confrontations lasts long enough to require a reload, the slide locking back will be your signal to reload. Developing the best way to deal with the reload THEN is what most of us will need to do.

If you shoot in a match where it's allowed, count away.

 

[JERRYS.]

In a real world self-defense confrontation, with others around -- some of whom may be shooting back -- facing maybe more than one opponent and, perhaps, concerned about protecting a companion or child, counting rounds is something Dirty Harry might pull off, but most of us may other things on our minds. The same is true for the G.I.s in combat.

^^^ this is true and needs to be heeded.
in many self defense shootings involving police and private citizens the round count is a guess by the one pulling the trigger. when a double stack magazine is used and the person is asked, they tend to say 4 or 5 shots, often being off by 2 or 3 shots.

when you are shooting for real, tunnel vision as well as tunnel hearing kicks in. counting the shots becomes more difficult during this time, particularly when you are focused on a threat trying to murder you.

 

[TunnelRat]

This brings up an interesting observation I have made in previous classes. Most decent classes will cover both slide lock or emergency reloads as well as tactical reloads. In class I tend to shoot dry to gain as much emergency reload practice as possible, especially while moving or engaging multiple targets because frankly my practice range doesn't allow this. At the same time another student next to me almost exclusively engaged in tactical reloads. On one hand if you practice emergency reloads extensively you will be good at doing them. However if you practice tactical reloads extensively perhaps you won't need to do one. I struggle with finding a balance between the two in class.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

JERRYS.:

I was still making changes to the response I had posted -- so your comments cite something that has been changed. I didn't change the GIST of what I said, but did change the language. If people wonder WHERE you got your quote -- it was my fault.

 

[PSP]

This isn't news. This is how just about all "go faster and harder" types train, and they have for many years. Old habits die hard in some folks.