Illogical Information

R

roy reali

New member
I was going through one of my older reloading manuals. In the description for the .280 Remington cartridge it mentions that it is more then adequate for elk. It even suggests using a 160 grain bullet.

A few pages later there is the .308 Winchester section. It says that this round is only border line for elk. You can fire a 165 grain bullet at about the same velocity as the .280 fires the slightly lighter bullet.

Then why is one a super elk cartridge and the other a whimpy elk cartridge? As Spock would say, illogical!

What other illogical gun/shooting information have read or heard?
 
S

Sefner

New member
"x caliber will blow the bad guy back twenty feet!"

Illogical in the physics sense (equal and opposite reaction).

I've seen entire debates in the gun that are illogical in that many are false dichotomies:

M4/AR15 vs AK-47
1911 versus anything else
Glock versus anything else
45ACP versus 9mm
Double Action versus Single Action
Chrome-lined barrel versus non-chromed
Stopping power versus penetration (this one is terrible)

Each of those things are different from their "opponents" in many respects. Neither is "better" than the other because each one was made for a different purpose and thus has different properties in order to fulfill that purpose. Which is better is like asking "Which is better, a Honda Civic or an 18 wheeler?" What are you going to use it for, what interests you, what features are important, etc etc. Thus we have a false dichotomy.

I was also once told by a gun store employee that the breeze of a 45ACP bullet going by would "be enough to do the job".
 
K

K_Mac

New member
I was also once told by a gun store employee that the breeze of a 45ACP bullet going by would "be enough to do the job".
Click to expand...

I am 78% sure that it has to be at least .50 to cause death from the air turbulence as the bullet speeds by.:D
 
W

woodguru

New member
.243 is marginal to inadequate.

You can hit a guy in the arm with a .45 and it will kill them (I'd not heard all it has to do is be close to kill)

+1 Glock :D
 
K

Kreyzhorse

New member
Then why is one a super elk cartridge and the other a whimpy elk cartridge?
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What you'll find is that those type books have multiple authors and multiple sources. One writer thinks cartridge XYZ is great and the other writer not so. Putting a book together in that basis lends itself to multiple conflicting views but nonetheless is still interesting reading.
 
W

Webleymkv

New member
The only guess I can make is that the .280 with 160grn bullets has a better cross-sectional density than a .308 with 165grn bullets.
 
E

egor20

New member
C Philip
Senior Member

Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 640

"You don't have to aim with a shotgun, it spreads out to fill up the whole room."


Had a range guru tell my wife that she only had to point it in the same time zone for a 12 gauge to work, she called him an unkind word :D
 
T

TheGoldenState

New member
I liked this one, from a poster here, last week.


.45 acp is the way to go.. 1 shot to the chest will stop any attacker no matter wat he is on... you might need 2 or 3 shots of .40 to stop someone who is on crack... this post is like asking preferance on wood bats or aluminium bats.. they both work good and get the job done.. is all in personal preferance.. if you are a good shot then go for the .45 if you suck then go for the .40 it holds more rounds..
Click to expand...
 
S

Sensai

New member
The 243 Winchester is a very marginal deer hunting round, the 6mm Remington is much better. They use the same bullets at very close to the same velocity. How do the deer know whether to lay down right there or run for about a mile???
 
B

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
The whole question of cartridge X being sufficient for animal Y is the worst discussion that I usually see. It's pretty much the same as the "Knock Down Power" discussion.

One guy thinks that an animal ran 100 yards after being shot so the gun's not enough...

Another guy thinks that a 25-06 is marginal but talks of hunting with a 44magnum in another thread....



I saw a hunting show not too long ago wherein the hunter was using a large .30-something caliber round on Elk. I'm pretty sure it was a 375H&H. He shoots the Elk, it runs maybe 100 yards, stops in plain sight and stands there teetering. Just as it looks about to fall over, probably 5 seconds from the first shot, he shoots it again. The thing runs, maybe another 75 yards but not really any farther away. AS IT IS TIPPING OVER he shoots it a THIRD TIME. He then turns to the camera and says "See, that's why you need a lot of gun for these animals. You really can't have too much gun."

I'm thinking, you're an idiot. If you hadn't shot the second time, the animal would have been dead 6 seconds after you shot it the first time.
 
W

woodguru

New member
.30-30 The Most Powerful Rifle In The World

I was in Arkansas when I was 19 (1973) shooting my .Sako .243 down a power line cut when a local yokel joins me. He proceeds to tell me this here rifle is a .30-30, the most powerful rifle in the world, and it will shoot rings around whatever it is you have "dere".

He adds "I kin shoot somptin as fer as dat thar telerfone poe" (1/4 mile away).

I know it's bad form to mess with the mentally retarded, but I couldn't resist. I had been shooting a five gallon bucket at somewhere around 600+ yards, I said "oh, where that big bucket is, he says yep. I asked, kin ya hit it? He says sure kin. I had to prompt him with a let's see it bubba.

His bullet hits the dirt at about 200 yards, he says wayull Ah gayuss Ah gotta ayum uh beeyut hiya. He tried walking his aim up for a half a dozen shots and gave it up at the point where he was over 30 degrees or so and started belligerantly wanting to know if I could even hit it that far away, that's gotta be half a mile he says. "More like a mile:D" I say, "sure I can".

It was a thing of beauty making the first shot spot on, this is the kind of thing Arkansas legends are built on. Not only did I hit it but it must have hit the top rim because it got tossed in the most gratifying manner. He says lucky shot, betchya kint do'er agin, I said bet I can and did it again (the force was with me :D)

Now I get a whole new line of logic thrown at me, he says everbody knows a .30-30 does way more damage to a deer that whatever it is yer usin. I can't help it, I simply could not resist asking him what good that does if you can't hit it?

Now this guy was getting a lot belligerant so I told him my grandma was going to have dinner on soon so I better be headin back.

My guess is that the story got told that it was a one mile shot he couldn't make that I could. They're probably still talking about it in Murfreesboro.
 
T

thesheepdog

New member
AK's eat rocks.

Magazines are 200% reliable.

24"+ Barreled AR-15's.

Bipods

On other notes, the .280 may be better suited for Elk because it probably has a higher sectional density. Just a thought I pulled out of my head.
 
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