"If I can outshoot it, I don't want it..."
- Thread starter New_comer
- Start date
I understand what they are saying. While I won't be challenging Doug Koenig anytime soon, I have owned or shot weapons which handicapped me. Perhaps I got the best I can shoot out of that particular weapon, but if I were to pick up a match grade gun, with better sights and a longer sight radius my groups would tighten.
I think it is essentially that the shooter is capable of placing shots better than the gun. For examble, a shooter can fire 1/4 MOA, but his gun can only shoot 1 MOA. No matter how accurate the shooter is, the gun is the deciding factor on the overall accuracy when the two are combined.
Mannlicher
New member
that phrase is to some extent, braggadocio. There are very few of us that have the hand/eye coordination, or the practice level, or over all gun skills, that we are capable of shooting better than a quality firearm.
Taken in the context of meaning an average guy or gal can shoot better with a K-14 Smith than with a Lorcin .380, yeah, I will buy that.
Taken in the context of meaning an average guy or gal can shoot better with a K-14 Smith than with a Lorcin .380, yeah, I will buy that.
Not rubbish. For example, Bullseye pistol @ 50 yards:
Full scores only in the 3-inch area in the middle. If your gun can't shoot 3" at 50 yards, you have no chance of a full score no matter how good you are. If you're just OK, like most of us, and your gun can't hold that 3", you'll be all over the place.
Full scores only in the 3-inch area in the middle. If your gun can't shoot 3" at 50 yards, you have no chance of a full score no matter how good you are. If you're just OK, like most of us, and your gun can't hold that 3", you'll be all over the place.
629 shooter
New member
"Not rubbish. For example, Bullseye pistol @ 50 yards"
Exactly - that is why you don't see Glocks , Rugers , Kimbers or really any stock 1911 used in precision shooting. Shooting a score in the 90's at 50 yards one handed requires a highly accurate pistol.
Exactly - that is why you don't see Glocks , Rugers , Kimbers or really any stock 1911 used in precision shooting. Shooting a score in the 90's at 50 yards one handed requires a highly accurate pistol.
We're talking handguns, and they're pretty much limited to SD situations, as in being a PART of the SD solution.
That solution includes:
1. Holster
2. Training
3. Practice
4. Proficiency
5. Gun
Doesn't matter if you've got a tack driver at 100 yards at the range if you can't get it into the fight before a BG ventilates you.
A gun is just a small part of the solution, and I'm not going to be drilling a BG at 100 yards with a CCW.
That solution includes:
1. Holster
2. Training
3. Practice
4. Proficiency
5. Gun
Doesn't matter if you've got a tack driver at 100 yards at the range if you can't get it into the fight before a BG ventilates you.
A gun is just a small part of the solution, and I'm not going to be drilling a BG at 100 yards with a CCW.
A friend was having accuracy problems with a little semi he got from a show, never could get it to hit POA even at 7 yards. He's a pretty good shot, but asked me to try it too. Same results. Shot it from a bench and bags. Same results. Different ammo no difference.
That's a gun that I can outshoot (and I'm not a very good shot). I sure as heck don't want it because own shooters, not safe queens.
Now that gun wasn't "quality" by any stretch of the imagination, just interesting in an offbeat way, but don't recall "quality" ever being part of the statement.
Point of the comment is the operator, not the equipment should be the limiting factor in a working tool. Similar to the comment, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."
That's a gun that I can outshoot (and I'm not a very good shot). I sure as heck don't want it because own shooters, not safe queens.
Now that gun wasn't "quality" by any stretch of the imagination, just interesting in an offbeat way, but don't recall "quality" ever being part of the statement.
Point of the comment is the operator, not the equipment should be the limiting factor in a working tool. Similar to the comment, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."
Not a handgun...
but a real world example
in my youth, before the advent of sabots and rifled barrels, some shotguns wouldn't hit a 5 gallon bucket at 40 yards with regular slugs. I had two.
we've got several shooters at our store that may well shoot better than some "average" handguns. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. One shooter in particular, will run a target to the 10 yard line with the white side facing the shooter. He'll empty a mag and have one hole when done. I don't think the average handgun can hold that tight, even from a Ransom rest.
I'd be the first to admit he's way, way above average. Then again, I was at a PPC shoot where 5 of 6 shooters had perfect scores. Of course, they're way above average too.
but a real world example
in my youth, before the advent of sabots and rifled barrels, some shotguns wouldn't hit a 5 gallon bucket at 40 yards with regular slugs. I had two.
we've got several shooters at our store that may well shoot better than some "average" handguns. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. One shooter in particular, will run a target to the 10 yard line with the white side facing the shooter. He'll empty a mag and have one hole when done. I don't think the average handgun can hold that tight, even from a Ransom rest.
I'd be the first to admit he's way, way above average. Then again, I was at a PPC shoot where 5 of 6 shooters had perfect scores. Of course, they're way above average too.
Guns I can outshoot:
1) Slug shotgun with Fosters and a smooth bore barrel
2) Good ol' fashioned muzzleloader.
3) CZ-52
Guns that can outshoot me:
1) All others.
BTW, Redneck2, what's the time limit on that 10 yard one-holer? It's not hard if it's slowfire, but rapid fire is downright difficult.
1) Slug shotgun with Fosters and a smooth bore barrel
2) Good ol' fashioned muzzleloader.
3) CZ-52
Guns that can outshoot me:
1) All others.
BTW, Redneck2, what's the time limit on that 10 yard one-holer? It's not hard if it's slowfire, but rapid fire is downright difficult.
629 shooter
New member
We're talking handguns, and they're pretty much limited to SD situations
I know of far more uses for handguns than self defense - target , plinking , hunting and metallic silhouette all come to mind. I have never had to shoot someone and don't know of anyone personally that ever shot anyone in self defense with a handgun. You would think that weekly shootouts with bad guys were common among handgun owners here at TFL reading some of the posts.
I know of far more uses for handguns than self defense - target , plinking , hunting and metallic silhouette all come to mind. I have never had to shoot someone and don't know of anyone personally that ever shot anyone in self defense with a handgun. You would think that weekly shootouts with bad guys were common among handgun owners here at TFL reading some of the posts.
629, I agree. Since we are all saying our goodbyes here at TFL, I can't resist the impulse to say this one more time. This a point I have tried to make hundreds of times. Just because you buy guns for self defense doesn't mean that everyone only buys guns for self defense. There are plenty of avid gun owners who don't even think about the self defense aspect of gun ownership. I am one of them. I own plenty of guns. I own several of the dreaded AR15s. I own a machine gun. I have numerous 2" barreled handguns. I have a CCW. Each and every one of my guns is locked in a safe unloaded. I almost never carry. I don't have a gun on my night stand. I don' t have a gun in my pickup.
Any thread that discusses the ability to out-shoot a gun should immediately make everyone aware that it is not about self defense or combat shooting. This should be a given. When discussing very fine, super accuracy, the discussion is NOT about combat shooting.
Are there people who can outshoot guns ? Yes. Absolutely. Are they common ? It depends on what gun you are talking about. As was mentioned, I have owned guns that I could outshoot. Not because I am so good, but because the gun was so bad. What does this mean ? It means that attempting to improve my shooting with that particular gun is a waste of time. I will get no better because that partiuclar gun's accuracy is so bad that I can't improve my shooting. It might be fun to shoot and there is nothing wrong with that, but for serious training, it is pointless. A world class shooter like David Tubb, or Doug Koenig probably can outshoot most garden variety out of the box guns. That is why they shoot custom guns. That is why they consistently win National Championships. Just because we can't match them doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
A good example is shooting a gun from a benchrest. This obviously eliminates a lot of the human error involved in shooting. Let's say I take one gun and shoot a 1" group with it. I take another gun and shoot a 6" group with it fromt he same distance, same everything. I am obviously capable of shooting better than that because I just did it with another gun. Therefore, I am capable of outshooting that particular gun. Just a note for those who haven't punched in. Shooting from a benchrest has nothing to do with gunfighting, war, knife fighting, dog fighting................
Any thread that discusses the ability to out-shoot a gun should immediately make everyone aware that it is not about self defense or combat shooting. This should be a given. When discussing very fine, super accuracy, the discussion is NOT about combat shooting.
Are there people who can outshoot guns ? Yes. Absolutely. Are they common ? It depends on what gun you are talking about. As was mentioned, I have owned guns that I could outshoot. Not because I am so good, but because the gun was so bad. What does this mean ? It means that attempting to improve my shooting with that particular gun is a waste of time. I will get no better because that partiuclar gun's accuracy is so bad that I can't improve my shooting. It might be fun to shoot and there is nothing wrong with that, but for serious training, it is pointless. A world class shooter like David Tubb, or Doug Koenig probably can outshoot most garden variety out of the box guns. That is why they shoot custom guns. That is why they consistently win National Championships. Just because we can't match them doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
A good example is shooting a gun from a benchrest. This obviously eliminates a lot of the human error involved in shooting. Let's say I take one gun and shoot a 1" group with it. I take another gun and shoot a 6" group with it fromt he same distance, same everything. I am obviously capable of shooting better than that because I just did it with another gun. Therefore, I am capable of outshooting that particular gun. Just a note for those who haven't punched in. Shooting from a benchrest has nothing to do with gunfighting, war, knife fighting, dog fighting................
444 and 629,
Good points. My outlook is different in that I don't tend to do things that don't have some future value. Golf, for example. After getting into it pretty heavily during college, I asked myself "what good is it?" That was that Same way with bowling, tennis, and most spectator sports. They're all fun when shared with friends, but when they get "serious", I'm outta' there!
Shooting, however, is different. It's analogous to flying. Everything about it hones what may be a crucially needed skill. Even the FAA requires proof of skill and medical condition every 6 months, and every pilot knows EVERY flight is a training flight.
I plink and piddle around with non-CCWs, and sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised with their accuracy, but they're not serious guns, and they don't get the time or attention for me to become really good with them. I always want the confidence that 1/10 of a second edge in getting a first accurate shot off gives me, and that's where the training time and money goes.
Maybe it's silly having a shock of gray hair and walking around sizing everybody I see up as a potential BG and figuring if I could take them, but I'm just not a condition white kind of guy who enjoys surprises.
Good points. My outlook is different in that I don't tend to do things that don't have some future value. Golf, for example. After getting into it pretty heavily during college, I asked myself "what good is it?" That was that Same way with bowling, tennis, and most spectator sports. They're all fun when shared with friends, but when they get "serious", I'm outta' there!
Shooting, however, is different. It's analogous to flying. Everything about it hones what may be a crucially needed skill. Even the FAA requires proof of skill and medical condition every 6 months, and every pilot knows EVERY flight is a training flight.
I plink and piddle around with non-CCWs, and sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised with their accuracy, but they're not serious guns, and they don't get the time or attention for me to become really good with them. I always want the confidence that 1/10 of a second edge in getting a first accurate shot off gives me, and that's where the training time and money goes.
Maybe it's silly having a shock of gray hair and walking around sizing everybody I see up as a potential BG and figuring if I could take them, but I'm just not a condition white kind of guy who enjoys surprises.
629 and Schmackey, well, I suppose on how you look at it. Gun games are just that--games.
I always find it strange that everyone wants (and has apparently) a pistol that shoots a dime at 300 yards, but no on wants to work on their gun handling or mindset which are far greater in importance. Since only a tiny fraction of a percentage of people can "outshoot" their weapon(s), especially under stress of a fight, the scribbling that the gun rags do about hypothetical accuracy is feckless.
I always find it strange that everyone wants (and has apparently) a pistol that shoots a dime at 300 yards, but no on wants to work on their gun handling or mindset which are far greater in importance. Since only a tiny fraction of a percentage of people can "outshoot" their weapon(s), especially under stress of a fight, the scribbling that the gun rags do about hypothetical accuracy is feckless.