I Think I Found A Single Action That I Like, But...

Joe_Pike

New member
...I know nothing about Uberti. A couple of months ago I asked if Ruger was my best bet in a single action revolver and everyone that answered seemed to think that they were. However, I can't find one that gives me that warm, fuzzy feeling when I look at it.

Now, I know that looks aren't everything and I agree, but sometimes they certainly help. Keeping that in mind, I saw the Uberti 1873 Cattleman Bird's Head Old Model in .357 with a 3.5" barrel and really liked the looks of it. I just don't know much about the quality. Are they nowhere near what a Ruger is? I looked on Ruger's site and didn't find anything like this Uberti. In fact I didn't find any Rugers with Bird's Head grips at all.
 

shootniron

New member
No. You are correct and I did not grasp that when I read your post.

Please excuse my unobservant posting.

BTW, a local gun shop has that Doc Holliday Uberti and it is a beautiful gun.
 

Jim March

New member
Uberti makes a pretty good gun. It's not quite a Ruger but it's not too far off either. Them and Pietta are the top two Italian outfits. The guns sold under those names (or the various American import houses like EMF importing Piettas, Cimarron, Navy Arms and Taylor's importing Uberti, etc.) are all "no safety guns" - you have to carry them hammer-down-on-an-empty-chamber, loaded "five up".

There's two exceptions:

* Uberti is owned by Beretta, and the Beretta Stampede series has a Ruger-like transfer bar safety. Problem: at least with high round counts, these aren't as reliable as the Ubertis without safeties. Complaints have been made among the cowboy action crowd that the Berettas don't hold up.

* Heritage imports a full-sized variant of the Piettas with transfer bar safeties and does the final finish stateside. Grip frame and finish options are limited at best - no bird's head or Thunderer type grip frames available. It's called the "Big Bore" series, and past the fact that they exist I know little about them.

Are you looking for a Thunderer/Lightning type grip, or a bird's head? There's a difference. The former is derived from a pair of early Colt double action revolvers starting in 1877:

Colt_DA_Thunderer_41_cal_981xx_1_.JPG


You can get this style of grip frame for Rugers:

BS5W%20SMALL.jpg


http://www.gungrip.com/detail_RBS1__558.html

"Bird's Head" is a period-correct alteration of the Colt SAA grip frame, made by bending and welding the stock grip frame parts originally, producing a very different shape that Ruger has built in the past and is available from Uberti:

Big-Mvc-011f.jpg


http://www.gunblast.com/Birdshead.htm

The BH type handles big recoil better, and will be more comfortable to shoot with "really serious" 357Mag loads such as the very wildest stuff DoubleTap Ammo and Buffalo Bore sell today rivalling the 10mm. And yes, even the Italian guns can cope with at least respectable diets of same in 357.

The Thunderer/Lightning types don't "roll in your hand" as well to absorb the recoil, but are faster shot-to-shot with milder ammo. They'll still feel OK with most 357 loads, starting to hurt a bit as you explore the outer limits of what the 357 can do.

As you can see, a Ruger can be converted to either - get ahold of the old Ruger factory bird's head (which will take some searching!) or buy the aftermarket Thunderer/Lightning type. If you're converting a Ruger that came with a "keylock grip frame" you'll need to buy a new "original Vaquero length" mainspring, mainspring strut and mainspring keeper, all available cheap at Brownells, Midway or the like. This will also ditch the keylock, not that the Ruger keylock is obnoxious.

OK. If you're still stuck on the Italians, lemme tell you the rest of the story.

If your budget allows, the best-looking guns to come out of Italy are from Uberti made to their highest finish level. Under the Uberti brand name this is the "El Patron" model. From Cimarron it's the "Evil Roy", from Taylor's it's the "Smokewagon" and "Running Iron". These are all basically the same gun. The "Evil Roy" is probably the best of those three (and most expensive) as Cimarron does some hand-tuning stateside.

I don't know if that finish level is available in either a Thunderer or BH type grip frame. No idea.

Most of the time, the single best deal on a high-end Italian gun is one of the pre-tuned Longhunters:

http://www.longhunt.com - he's a gunsmith that sells brand new "pre-tuned" guns, plus he weeds out any "birth defect cases".

You'll also want to browse around the Taylor's catalog, see if there's one you like...one thing I noticed is that the short-barrel Bird's Head grip frame variants don't have ejector rods, and I for one don't like that idea at all. I'd rather have a 3.75" barrel instead of a 3.5" and get a usable ejector rod as Ruger typically does on their shorter guns like the now-out-of-production BH Ruger pictured above.

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/cartridgeFirearms.tpl

I suspect Longhunter could get anything in the Taylor's catalog and tune it up for you, and possibly he knows about some options that aren't listed in the online catalog that he could score. If spending $600 for the best (and best looking) Italian gun you can get is in your price range, drop Longhunter a line.

To give you an idea just how fair Longhunter's prices are, here's the lowest you can get a Taylor's Smokewagon for without LH's tuning - note the similarity in price!

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/60232

A tuned-up gun will feel a LOT better in the cocking and trigger feel department. You won't believe the difference.

In the Piettas the EMF Great Western II series makes the most sense:

http://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/1873-Great-Western-II-Revolvers-c64.htm - they're apparently doing Thunderer types but no BH.

I also have some more notes (mainly on Rugers) here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/gxz11/wanted_reliable_yet_affordable_western_style_six/

For the record: my choice was the Ruger New Vaquero in 357. It's still fundamentally a better gun than anything from Italy and can be tweaked into whatever you want. Of course, I'm now taking "tweaked SA" into a whole new realm...12+ round capacity and quick-change magazines :D. It's half done, at least at the "lab experiment level".
 

shootniron

New member
Again my friend, you are correct....it was a Cimarron.

At any rate, it is one of the more beautiful looking and feeling guns that I have ever had in my hand.

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publius

New member
they are very good guns and i imagine you will wind up shooting mostly .38's out of it so strength isn't an issue. The only time I shoot heavy loads is hunting w/an adjustable sight Blackhawk. The fixed sights on the Uberti are not great for hunting and you're getting a .357 so I assume this is a fun/target gun. Get it and have fun.
 

Joe_Pike

New member
Are you looking for a Thunderer/Lightning type grip, or a bird's head?

Well, they are both good looking set-ups. Is there a big functional difference between the two? The Uberti Cattleman is a real nice looking piece as is the Cimarron Doc Holiday (and the one you have in your hand is pretty darn nice, too). I assume that they would both roll in the hand to absorb some recoil.
 

Jim March

New member
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Specialty/ThundDocHolliday.htm

Thunderer/Lightning type grip.

Yes, I think there's a big functional difference between this and the BH pattern.

Basically, the Thunderer type was one of the first ever to try and RESIST rolling in the hand. In a lot of ways it's the ancestor of all the DA wheelgun grips of the 20th century, although it certainly looks more "old west".

Colt intended it for use in guns that had fairly low power levels - no more than 300ft/lbs energy in terms of bullet hit. By today's standards that's pretty mild - the best 38+Ps will hit that, for example. From a gun of about 38oz or more, the recoil levels are very, very low.

Crank the energy level up to about 550ft/lbs energy (very stout 45LC loads, or normal 357Magnum) and that "hump" at the top will start to try and split your hand in half at the web between your thumb and forefinger. Again: it should still be controllable at that point for most adult males at least, but the whole concept is now doing horsepower about double what it was intended for and it's starting to fall apart.

Order Buffalo Bore's best 357 loads with about 800ft/lbs energy on tap, and the Thunderer/Lightning type grip frame will be painful at best, unshootable at worst. Try and use it with stout 44Mag power levels and you risk outright injury.

The BH under the same circumstances will "roll", absorbing big energy. At the 800ft/lbs energy mark (peak 357Mag) it will still feel OK. The shot-to-shot speed will drop because of the roll though. Some people are reporting success with the BH even with 44Mag ammo.

BUT, if you stay with rounds in the 400-500ft/lb range, your shot-to-shot speed with the Thunderer/Lightning pattern may be higher, esp. if you put a lower hammer on it of the SuperBlackhawk or Bisley types to make it fit your hands. I've considered this swap for a long time on my gun for this reason...I have fairly big hands and decent grip strength from 20+ years on motorcycles, so I think the Thunderer/Lightning type might work well for me. My carry load is DoubleTap's 125gr 357 loaded very close to the 800ft/lb energy range.

Separate issue: for that gun with matching shoulder rig and knife both with FAKE ivory grips, that price of $1580 is flat out INSANE. Unless you've got way more money than sense, for God's sake NO man, there's way better ways to get to the same place. Ye Gods and little fishies!

Now, there IS one very good deal on the Cimarron site that's similar to what you want. The Thunderer in dual-cylinder 45LC/45ACP in blue, under $700. That's got potential, that does! You can get very good deals on surplus 45ACP ammo...if you were picking 357 to keep your ammo costs down, 45ACP is something to think about as an alternative. Both the 45ACP and 45LC are supposed to use the same spec barrel so there's no problem there in terms of accuracy.

The 45ACP recoil levels should be a really good match for the Thunderer-type grip frame. In 45LC you can get some pretty decent ammo that's still rated as compatible with a Colt SAA post-war, such as Buffalo Bore's "standard pressure" series running about 500-550ft/lbs energy. This will stretch the bounds of what the Thunderer grip frame will do but probably not exceed it, at least for short shooting sessions :).

The 45 guns will balance better than the 357s, because the 45 cylinders will be lighter and the barrel will have thinner walls. Personally I'd go with the 4.68" tube to get a good compromise between bullet performance and being able to carry it. My NewVaq357 is my daily-carry-without-fail companion :).
 

Jbar4Ranch

New member
I've currently got 33 Uberti made revolvers, and have broken a trigger/bolt spring a couple times and a pawl spring once or twice, but that's the nature of a flat spring - flex 'em enough times over enough years, and they're going to fatigue and break. All in all, they're a good revolver.
 

Jim March

New member
Yeah, the Italian flat-springs can be questionable. First thing Longhunter does is swap them all for Wolff or another US source. I think Cimarron does that too, at least on the higher-end variants.

Uberti and Pietta upgraded their factories circa 2000-2001 and at least got the core metallurgy up to something respectable.
 

wheelyfun

New member
I owned an Uberti Cattleman in .357 with a 4.75" barrel.

After only a couple hundred rounds of ammo were fired through it...
The "hand" broke, and I sold it to a guy who probably spent the twelve bucks to fix it, and is probably having great luck with it!

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one... but might send it to a gunsmith that specializes in SAA revolvers, and let him replace springs and tune it up.

My next SAA will be a USFA Double Eagle... just gotta save up ($999. out the door at my local GS)
 

Joe_Pike

New member
Separate issue: for that gun with matching shoulder rig and knife both with FAKE ivory grips, that price of $1580 is flat out INSANE. Unless you've got way more money than sense, for God's sake NO man, there's way better ways to get to the same place. Ye Gods and little fishies!

Oh, I had no intentions of doing that, I just thought it was a nice looking setup. And, thanks for all of the info Jim. I may check out that 45LC/45acp setup.
 

Jim March

New member
but might send it to a gunsmith that specializes in SAA revolvers, and let him replace springs and tune it up.

Thing about Longhunter is, you don't have to "send" it anywhere :). It comes pre-tuned ready to go, at very reasonable prices and delivery times. LH is one of the best deals going. He does Rugers too.
 

wheelyfun

New member
Hey Jim March,
You are right... thanks for the link to Long Hunter..

Why would I ever buy from the my local shop, when I can get a great worked-over firearm from LH?

I like the fact that the Uberti can be worked over first, and so it will be ready to rock upon arrival.

Thanks again, and I will tell him you sent me!
 

DWFan

New member
I have no experience with Uberti's so I cannot dispute nor confirm this, but Cimarron Arms lists Uberti's as having a .355" bore on their .357's. Something to be aware of; especially if shooing cast bullets as most of those are sized to .358" and some to .359".
 

mcwop

New member
I had bad luck with my new Uberti, misfired with both calibers. Brand new gun, store sent it back to factory beginning of April. Called Uberti 2 days ago, and they stated they just got it, and would be another 3 weeks. So I don't know if it is fixable, nor have any idea if Uberti will make good on anything. I do know they are going real slow.

It shot well when it worked. But overall I am pretty soured on Uberti.

I wish I had bought the Ruger instead.

Here is my original review, and chronicle of the problem.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445895
 
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