I love lever rifles! Especially in 45 Colt!

kcub

New member
I don't know why. They're not really as good as bolt actions really as far as being a rifle go. Maybe it's because I'm a lefty. I like ambidextrous guns even better than lefty guns. Maybe it's because they are so fun. My favorite is my Uberti Henry in 45 Colt. It's accurate and its so slow you can hear the hit after the gun goes off even at 25 yards. How stupid! How pointless! How much fun!

CDNN had some 1873 Miroku Winchesters in 357 and 45 Colt. I bought one in 357 and am very impressed with the wood and color case receiver. I like it so much I bought the last 45 Colt just because it was the last 45 Colt. I wonder if I should shoot them or leave them NIB and sell them in a few years. Discontinued Winchesters tend to go up. Who am I kidding? I can resist anything except temptation.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

This article explains why original lever guns were never chambered in 45 Colt. Mainly, it's because Colt owned the patent and wouldn't allow it. I wonder if they had worked out a deal with Winchester, maybe Winchester paid them a royalty or scratched Colt's back some other way if the U.S. army might have looked at the lever rifle differently being chambered in a caliber they already had in their supply chain? (Yes I know about the 45 Schofield but the rifles work with those too; or at least my Uberti Henry does.)
 

COSteve

New member
Both my Uberti 1873 Special Sporting rifle and Uberti 1866 Yellowboy carbine are in 45 Colt. Fun cartridge, however, its a shame that the actions can't take a stouter load. The reason I got the 45 Colt over the 44-40 was that I got a killer deal on the 1873. It was NIB on Gunbroker by a Hardware store in Wisconsin and no one bid on it. After the auction closed, as I had emailed the store with a question on the description, I had their address so I sent them a offer saying that since the auction was over and they didn't owe GB any commission, if they were interested, I take it for $1,000 cash delivered. Figuring I never hear from them again, I signed off the computer for the night. To my surprise, the next morning I had an email saying that they'd take it.
 
Last edited:

elmbow

New member
I shoot Beartooth Bullet's 180 WFN at 1800 fps from my Marlin 94 .357. Been wanting one in 45 Colt for a looong time.
 

Kosh75287

New member
I hear from a Rossi .454 Casull carbine shooter that one must be VERY serious about wanting to shoot something with a .454 Casull in the carbine. Recoil sends him to shooting warmed-up .45 Colt, almost exclusively.
 

kcub

New member
I bought the last stainless 16" Rossi from Steve Young in 454, they are no longer listed. Steve test fired it and part of the internal foreend started to split. In just 2 shots. Part of the work he will be performing will be to glass bed and put a better recoil pad and cut at the correct angle. These are highly recommended by him on Rossi 454s. He had 2 20" blued 454s left.

Out of my Freedom Arms 454 revolver I found Winchester Super-X in the silver box to be more on a par with 44 magnum recoil than the usual hardcore 454 ammo. So along with 45 Colt I should have 3 distinct power levels available in a stainless carbine; or maybe 4 if you count hot 45 Colt.
 

SaxonPig

New member
Lever guns became popular in the 19th century mainly because they were flat and would carry well in a scabbard on a horse. The guys coming back from WW I turned to the more powerful bolt guns like they had used in the military as motorized vehicles replaced horses for daily transportation and the slab sided lever gun lost its supremacy.

But there is still a great deal of appeal to the lever action rifle in a pistol caliber. Fun to shoot, compact to carry in truck or even airplane, also makes sense for urban defense.

Because of the fragile design of the old 45 Colt case, the cartridge could not work in a lever rifle without the extractor tearing off the case rim. In the 20th century modern case construction made the 45 Colt viable in the carbine. I've had two lever carbines in 45 Colt. A 16" model that I swapped for a 24" octagon version just because I wanted a long barrel. I still have a 16" Winchester in 44 Magnum.

Here's my 45 Colt Model 92 clone...

standard.jpg
 

SaxonPig

New member
COSteve...You do realize that openly discussing "off board" purchasing of Gunbroker auction items could get you and the seller booted from the site for cheating the auction operation out of its commission.
 

Kosh75287

New member
Saxon Pig, I HOPE you're kidding...

I loved my M1892 .45 Colt Rossi. With my general-purpose 8.0/Unique/250 RNFP load, it would put 5 shots inside a teacup at 100 yards from a bench. I tried to push it harder, to flatten the trajectory, but groups opened up, so just went back to the GP load. It managed to harvest its share of critters and food.
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
Interesting thought, but since the auction was over, do the rules still apply? Is what was supposedly done any different than if a customer had walked into the store and bought the gun?

Jim
 

Crunchy Frog

New member
The only drawback is that some shooters experience "blowby", especially when using reduced power loads, when the case does not expand to fit the chamber, causing gas and sometimes powder to flow back through the action into the shooter's face. Sometimes this can be remedied by boosting the powder charge or using a heavier bullet, but if you rifle's chamber is "generous", some blowby may be unavoidable.

My lever rifles are in .38/.357 but if I ever spring for a big bore, I am inclined to go with the .44-40 or the .38-40. Of course, those are reputed to be a little trickier to handload than the .45 Colt but they would be great with black powder cartridges.
 

COSteve

New member
COSteve...You do realize that openly discussing "off board" purchasing of Gunbroker auction items could get you and the seller booted from the site for cheating the auction operation out of its commission.
Nope, the auction ran it's course to completion. No one bid on it during the auction period and therefore, after it concluded, the potential seller had fulfilled his responsibility under the contract with Gunbroker. As Gunbroker failed to provide a 'willing and able' buyer during the agreed upon contract period, neither party had any further obligation under the terms of the contract. At the completion of the auction, and therefore the contract, both parties walked away free to pursue any other avenues they so choose.

As I contacted the seller outside the Gunbroker auction process after the auction period was complete (I saw the seller's name and googled them to find out what their address, and contact information, and then sent them a direct email), I did not make a contact through Gunbroker so I had no obligation to continue and process with Gunbroker myself either as I entered into no contract agreement with Gunbroker.

Gunbroker openly shows sales information concerning potential sellers without restriction to anyone on the internet (i.e. no requirement to sign in or sign up before seeing it) so that information is 'in the public domain'. Therefore, there is no contract, either expressed or implied, between people 'surfing the net' and Gunbroker.

My understanding is that to bid on an item you must sign up with them and then sign in. At that time you are bound by the Terms and Conditions you agree to. Basic contract law.
 

Radny97

New member
Kcub I have a Rossi in 454. If I wanted to check out if I was having any forend problem like you describe, how would I do that?
 

kcub

New member
I wasn't paying close attention but after he fired a couple of shots in his trap in his workshop he had the forearm off pretty quick; I assume there must be a screw that attaches it?

The fact that he looked makes me think it's not uncommon. I don't know about other calibers.

Have you experienced blow by?

Is it only a black powder issue?
 

mikejonestkd

New member
I like it so much I bought the last 45 Colt just because it was the last 45 Colt

I was THIS close to buying it, and then I found out that my local FFL hadn't updated their info with CDNN. I was all set to call my local FFL to forward their info to CDNN when you bought the last one......

Missed it by that much.....

Enjoy the rifle
 

Radny97

New member
Kcub I haven't seen any problems and it shoots well. I'm not certain I would know what to look for other than blowback, which I haven't seen.
 
This article explains why original lever guns were never chambered in 45 Colt. Mainly, it's because Colt owned the patent and wouldn't allow it. I wonder if they had worked out a deal with Winchester, maybe Winchester paid them a royalty or scratched Colt's back some other way if the U.S. army might have looked at the lever rifle differently being chambered in a caliber they already had in their supply chain? (Yes I know about the 45 Schofield but the rifles work with those too; or at least my Uberti Henry does.)

Howdy

That is indeed an excellent article, particularly with his reference to the 45 Colt being a proprietary round. I don't know if that is true, but it is very interesting.

However the article overlooks, or at least does not make much of, a couple of other factors relating to the lack of rifles chambered for 45 Colt until relatively recently.

The first has already been touched on here. The rims of early 45 Colt ammunition were tiny. Being developed for a revolver, there was no need for a large diameter rim because the empties were punched out of the chambers by an ejector rod from the inside. There was no extractor on the Single Action Army, never has been. All the rim had to do was prevent the cartridge from being shoved into the chamber when struck by the firing pin, and it did not take a very wide rim to do so.

Here is a photo of some old 45 Colt rounds. Notice the majority of them have very small diameter rims. (except the round second from the right) Notice too, there are no 'extractor grooves' on any of these rounds except the modern round all the way on the right.

45%20Colt%20old%20cartridges_zpsk8psgcmk.jpg





Here is a close up of two of the rounds. The round on the left is typical of the original configuration of the 45 Colt round. It is a copper cased, Benet Primed round made at the Franford Arsenal in 1874. The two dents near the bottom hold the anvil plate of the inside priming in place. The diameter of this rim is only .503, barely larger than the body of the cartridge. This worked fine for a revolver like the SAA which punched the empties out from inside, but the extractor of a rifle would have had nothing to grab onto.

The round in the middle is a Winchester Repeating Arms round. The rim on it is only .505 in diameter, still not large enough for a rifle extractor to get a good purchase on.

The round on the right is a 44-40. Notice the rim is much larger, .525 in diameter. The 44-40 was designed specifically as a rifle round. The rim was made large enough so that a rifle extractor could get a good purchase on it.

Current SAAMI standards for the rim diameters of 45 Colt and 44-40 are .512 for 45 Colt and .520 for 44-40. A .512 diameter rim is large enough that a rifle extractor can grab it.

45%20colt%2044-40%20old%20cartridges%20rims_zpsetvb56sr.jpg



***********


Regarding 'blowby' and 45 Colt rifles.

No, it is not specifically restricted to Black Powder loadings, I have seen gas jetting out of the top of the action of a 45 Colt rifle at CAS matches, but it is not much of an issue with Smokeless powder. It becomes an issue with Black Powder.

The reason for blowby with 45 Colt is because the case walls are thicker than cases such as 44-40. 45 Colt brass tends to run around .012 thick at the case mouth, 44-40 tends to run around .007. Some folks think it is the tapered shape of the 44-40 or 38-40 that keeps fouling from blowing by these rounds, but that is incorrect. It is the thickness of the brass. With the relatively low pressures developed by Black Powder, or light Smokeless charges, the thin 44-40 brass expands and seals the chamber, keeping the gases, and fouling pretty much in the bore, where it belongs. However these same pressures are often not able to expand the thicker 45 Colt cases enough to seal the chamber, so some gas tends to make its way back out of the chamber and into the action.

Not much of a big deal with Smokeless, just some gas back into the action. But with Black Powder you can get fouling into the action and it can bind up the action in relatively short order.

There are workarounds. Most of them involve raising the pressure so the 45 Colt seals better in the chamber. This can be done by always using a heavy bullet, such as 250 grains. Being sure the crimp is heavy will also help raise pressure. And lastly, some folks only neck size their 45 Colt brass, so the main body of the round remains in an expanded state to better seal the chamber. This may not be a good idea if the brass is to be used in more than one rifle, the chambers may not be the same.

My first CAS rifle happened to be an original Winchester Model Model 1892 chambered for 44-40. So I developed an affinity for the cartridge. Later on I started loading it with Black Powder. At this point I have I think five rifles chambered for 44-40 and one chambered for 38-40. When I fire these rifles, the brass ejects almost as clean as it went in, with very little fouling on it. Almost all the fouling stays in the bore where it belongs.
 

smee78

New member
I too am a big fan of leverguns and the 45Colt in a rifle. I have a Marlin 1894 Cowboy Limited in 45Colt and with it big heavy 24" octagon barrel it is a pleasure to shoot. I had a older Rossi Interarms in 45Colt that I let a friend talk me out of...I'm not sure he is such a good friend;).
 
Top