I just saw "Waco - Rules of Engagement"

[thaddeus]

I just saw the documentary "Waco - Rules of Engagement" for the second time. Amazing. I first saw it on HBO several months ago. Now it is on the New Release shelves at Blockbuster.

Rent it. See it. That is all I can say, words cannot even begin to touch in this post what is on that tape. You will never again trust what you hear on the news or what the gov't says, or that they are here "to protect us".
To think...my friends actually sided with the FBI/ATF during that incident and bought the media lies that the Davidians were a cult nemesis to our country and a bunch of whackos that needed to be exterminated. I reserved judgement, although I admit that I was swayed by the only source of information I had - my TV.
Well into the standoff, I asked a friend (because I really forgot), "What started this whole thing anyway? Why don't the ATF guys just leave them alone and walk away?". My friend replied emphatically: "They SHOT some ATF agents!" I then asked "But why did they storm his home in the first place?".

At the time we both could not recall, but were so programmed by the TV that these people were whackos, that we shrugged it off and went on with our day. Now I have to ask the question again: why did they storm the home in the first place? (along with hundreds of other haunting questions brought up by this documentary).

Frankly, I am surprised that the powers-that-be allowed this documentary to go into print.


A couple quotes that stuck with me:

From a mother that escaped while her family burned: "I think this event was meant to happen just to show us what kind of people we have in our government"

From the man who wrote the book on the incident afterward: "The Davidians prophecy was that they would be slaughtered by the army of Babylon...perhaps that is exactly what happened..."


I am going to watch it again. This one is worth owning. Watch it anytime you need a wakeup call.

 

[DrJon]

thaddeus,

I know what you mean about when it first happened. I too belived what I watched on TV. Then I saw the HBO showing. What a sheeple I was back then I now have my own copy that by the way, is longer than the HBO showing. So it was edited a little for HBO. But not much.

I wonder how many others got a wakeup call when they saw it on HBO. It still amazes me that it even was allowed to air.

Jon...

 

[thaddeus]

The last movie that ever made me cry was Braveheart, in the theater. Braveheart got me to cry because if nothing else it is an amazing movie. This one just about got me crying, not from the directing or storyline which does not really exist in a documentary, but just from the horror that was done to those people and how they died so painfully and slowly. Especially when I saw Sonny Bono crying during a survivor's testimony of how he heard his friends screaming as they burned to death and convulsed from the cyanide gas (whichever killed them first) and he could identify the individual voices of his friends and their children dying a horrific death.
I also wanted to vomit. They just ran those people over with tanks, one of them got stuck in the tank treds and they had to tow the tank off because a body was lodged in the tracks, disabling the tread. The children's bodies were shattered by the contractions of their own muscles from the cyanide gas, warping them into monsterous corpses. Most of the people had bullets holes in them even thought the FBI "didn't fire a single shot". The people that lived through all of that literally cooked to death in a metal room with no exit. It was the most disgusting thing I have heard done to people since Nazi Germany. It just made me nauseous that those people died like that. All of it over a few supposed illegal parts that could make guns full-auto.
No one even knows if they ever had those illegal weapons, and it is said by witnesses that David Koresh invited the BATF to come by and search his place, but they wanted to surprise him with the media there and make a show of it. The whole thing was just a slaughter of people because they were not in the "norm", and an example the ATF wanted to show of what happens to anyone that they don't like.

The question looms: if the ATF did not fire first, and the gov't is innocent, then why did they confiscate all videos that they could, take the bodies so that only the FBI could investigate themselves, and completely destroy the scene of the crime, removing every peice of that house and making it disappear, including the front door. Very simply, if the FBI and ATF were innocent, they would WANT this evidence to be shown and they would release what they have and never made disappear what evidence they could. The mere fact that they made all evidence disappear and refuse to say anything but that they "lost it", proves that the evidence they are hiding could only work against them.

Anyway, just watch the documentary if you haven't seen it, there is waaaay too much to put in this post. It is over two hours of total jaw-dropping, gaped-mouth amazing details.

As an objective observer I would also like to add that I watched the tape with caution, realizing that I am distrusting one media and embracing another. Just as the gov't has an agenda, who knows if this documentary's agenda is any more truthful. But, I still cannot believe anything but that those people were murdered by our government as an example to the rest of us that we better not even THINK of ever resisting the ATF if they come knocking, because they WILL kill you and make it look like they did the country a service.

[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited August 06, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited August 06, 1999).]

 

[thaddeus]

Here is some news from World News Daily that says that there is new evidence emerging about the Waco incident that is being avoided by the mainstream press. Check it out:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_dougherty_com/19990805_xcjod_silence_wa.shtm

Here is a question: if and when it is proven that the FBI lied onder oath over and over and that they did shoot at the Davidians...then what? What do you do to the law of the land to punish them? Lock up all involved or what? Are they above contempt?



[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited August 06, 1999).]

 

[Fred S]

I was an active duty army officer at the time of Waco. I had just submitted my resignation for other reasons when I watched what was happening on TV in our office building. As I watched Bradley Fighting Vehicles and the CEV attack the compund I was horrified to see symbols of the US Army killing Americans. I was always proud to serve my nation, but on that day I was ashamed and also glad that I was leaving the army. Maybe there were crimes going on in the compound, maybe not. But in no way should federal law enforecment official and the US military take such action against the soverieign citizens of this great nation as they did that day.

 

[Dennis]

Thaddeus,
I believe your article is important enough to post:
========================================
((quote))
THURSDAY AUGUST 05 1999; John Dougherty; WND Exclusive
Commentary
Silence on Waco evidence
© 1999 WorldNetDaily.com

The mainstream press groupies are ignoring startling new evidence about
the federal government's assault on the Branch Davidian community in
Waco, Texas, in 1993.

In case you haven't heard, the evidence I'm talking about was first
chronicled in the Dallas Morning News over a week ago. It seems as
though the chairman of the Texas Department of Public Safety -- the
Texas Rangers -- has evidence that solidly refutes the federal
government's version of events that took place against members of the
Branch Davidian religious group.

The evidence includes key interdepartmental federal law enforcement
memos, thermal imaging reports, and an examination of video evidence
by an analyst from the National Reconnaissance Office.

Specifically, the evidence:
Establishes a belief among many within the government that if the Feds
get away with what they did at Waco, the rule of law will suffer the most.

* Supports earlier claims made by independent reporters that FLIR
(Forward Looking Infrared) imagery examined by noted expert Dr.
Edward F. Allard indeed shows federal agents firing automatic weapons at
fleeing Davidians.

* Shows the FBI admitting in a report that federal automatic weapons
fire during the final assault on the Davidian community originated from a
position designated as "Sierra One."

* Shows the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms admitting in a
memo that three ATF agents went on a friendly shooting trip with
Davidian leader David Koresh just nine days before the initial ATF
assault.

* Establishes that explosive canisters of a flammable nature were used
repeatedly during the initial phases of the assault.

There is also evidence that the initial federal judge in the case, district
court Judge Walter Smith, has done everything in his power to
accommodate the government's cover-up. Judge Smith has sentenced
Davidian survivors for offenses the jury did not convict them of,
prevented some verdicts from casting any doubt on the government's
"official explanation" of what happened at Waco, and prevented survivors
from being available to the media to tell their stories.

And now that Judge Smith has a number of Waco-related wrongful death suits in his
court, he is doing his best to throw out or block most of them and to exclude as much evidence as possible. It reminds me of the McVeigh trial.

While all of this is going on -- the makings of a gargantuan scandal -- I have to ask where are the mainstream media crews? Where are the CNN cameras documenting every second of this ballooning scandal -- in the
same manner they documented every second of the Waco showdown over six years ago?

Why aren't Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw parked
outside Judge Smith's courtroom, giving viewers a minute-by-minute live analysis of this enormous breaking story?

Where's the "60 Minutes" crew or the "Nightline" documentary? Why are the major news web sites more interested in polling Americans about gun control and how they feel about the passing of JFK Jr. than reporting the obvious discrepancies in
the federal government's version of events at Waco?

It makes me sick to hear these people call themselves reporters.

The major media players have been handed this story on a silver platter, but still they ignore it. Back when independent filmmakers and producers dug up all the evidence the Texas Rangers now claim to have, they were discounted as "kooks," "weirdos," "right-wing conspirators," and losers with an ax to grind against Clinton and Reno.

That assessment was, of course, erroneous, but now it's beside the point. This time the vaunted Texas Rangers are making the same claims.

How much more reputable can you get? How much more substantiated can this story be? And yet, it continues to be ignored.

By "choosing" not to report this breaking news, editors at the majors are becoming co-conspirators in the government's crime against the Davidians.

That makes them worse than worthless as news agencies -- it makes them just as guilty as the federal agents who pulled the triggers on their assault rifles when they "bravely" gunned down women and children trying to escape the flames consuming their homes. And it makes them just as guilty as the people who ordered these agents to do what they did.

Isn't it odd how the mainstream press made the deaths of women and children at the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City more important than the deaths of Davidian women and children?

I guess Davidian women and children deserved to die because they were "right wing extremists." I guess the FBI had every right to use automatic assault weapons to gun them down -- unarmed -- as they fled
a fire started by the government in the first place.

That must be what the mainstream media crowd thinks because they sure aren't interested in the truth about Waco.

Jon E. Dougherty is a senior writer and columnist for WorldNetDaily, as
well as a morning co-host of Daybreak America.
((unquote))
=========================================
THIS is the government we now have.

YOU tell ME - who are America’s worst terrorists? Gun owners or our
present government?

Remember, we also are considered "right wing extremists" because we believe in the RKBA.

I believe a vote for the current establishment is a vote for such criminal carnage - both past and future. Remember, the leaders of this debacle got promoted....

Vote your conscience. Vote these people out of our government.




[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 06, 1999).]

 

[Little-e]

It seems like a never ending cover up. Have you read "The Federal Siege at Ruby Ridge" by Randy and Sara Weaver? I, in no way, think Randy was as clean as he makes himself sound in the book but the Feds rules of engagement there were non existant. A few of the upper crust people there were also involved in Waco.

Read the book and take the first half with a grain of salt. The transcripts from the Senate subcomittee in the second half are hard to argue with. They show in detail the complete lack of planning, communication, organization, and leadership that allows things like this to happen. Heck, no one at the Hoover Building even admitted to reading the rules of engagement when they were faxed over there.

How can anyone with any intelligence run an organization like that?

 

[Bulldozer]

The mainstream press groupies are ignoring startling new evidence about
the federal government's assault on the Branch Davidian community in
Waco, Texas, in 1993.

-- this is nothing new. The media has been screening the news headlines for years. They are in an ungodly alliance with the liberal politicos in this nation. There has been more scandal and cover-up in this administration than I can ever remember in any previous presidency in my lifetime. Mind you, I can only recall back to the Ford Administration.


It seems as though the chairman of the Texas Department of Public Safety -- the
Texas Rangers -- has evidence that solidly refutes the federal government's version of events that took place against members of the
Branch Davidian religious group.

-- Finally a credible source that cannot be labeled as a "kook" or an "extremist" by the media. I think most folks know that the way that siege was handled was the biggest clusterf--k the Justice Dept/FBI/ATF ever had their hands on.

* Supports earlier claims made by independent reporters that FLIR
(Forward Looking Infrared) imagery examined by noted expert Dr. Edward F. Allard indeed shows federal agents firing automatic weapons at fleeing Davidians.

-- I'd expect this in some Third World country, not in the USA. How dare these men shoot fleeing civilians in the BACK! If we, as lawful gun-owners shoot a fleeing criminal in the back, we are screwed, but these high and mighty agents can kill with impunity.

* Establishes that explosive canisters of a flammable nature were used repeatedly during the initial phases of the assault.

-- So we not only shoot people in the back, we also burn them alive. This sounds more like the pogroms of Stalin's Russia or the Nazi assault on the Warsaw ghetto than a "law enforcement" action.

Judge Smith has sentenced Davidian survivors for offenses the jury did not convict them of,prevented some verdicts from casting any doubt on the government's "official explanation" of what happened at Waco, and prevented survivors from being available to the media to tell their stories.

-- Sounds very unconstitutional to me. Maybe these victims need a good attorney.

By "choosing" not to report this breaking news, editors at the majors are becoming co-conspirators in the government's crime against the Davidians.

-- Did you ever stop to think that the media was in on the whole thing from the start? I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist, but I don't recall there ever being a good explanation of why the ATF went in shooting from the get-go.

-- There is no doubt in my mind that the Federal government has become more intrusive during the period of Klinton Hegemony. They have taken our freedoms away step by step -- either through political wrangling in the halls of Congress or by Presidential fiat. Reno seems to be at the center of it all -- she sweeps the untidy peices into a lump under the carpet. I can only hope that some Congress critters can pull it back far enough to get those lumps into the light of day. Waco was just the start. I can see it happening again. No doubt in my mind.

 

[legacy38]

I rented "Waco" tonight and just go through watching it. I don't see how anybody can watch that video and come come away convinced that the Dividians weren't murdered.

The scarry thing is that a cult has moved into my hometown. I can't help but feel that something like that is going to happen to them.

------------------
"God grants liberty only to those who love it and are always ready to guard and defend it." --Daniel Webster

 

[Ivan8883]

Waco is just a dress rehersal for future Federales brutalities coming up soon. Sure, the boys have been quiet for a few years as far as MAJOr brutalities against the masses. But they are building up their dumbed down military and militarized police zombies for the big event I believe is coming up. In fact, i am hearing about possible martial law as early as September. People have been calling to the shortwave shows with info from their military sources. I wouldnt be surprised if Federales stage some incidents and blame native forces for the troubles. Yes guys, we are the new potential wacos just waiting for them to happen. go ahead, say i am nuts and dont know what i am talking about. I can take the heat and aint leaving the kitchen!

 

[thaddeus]

There is one thing that I found particularly atrocious, but the documentary failed to really drive home:

They showed FLIR of the fires and the agents shooting into the firey building. They showed where the people ended up huddling in the building, cooked alive. They showed where the one survivor walked out after the 'troops' with machine guns had backed off from the flames, thinking that everyone must be dead. They showed the pictures but I think they forgot to really drive home one thing: Those people were burning to death in a room with ONE exit, and those agents outside were shooting into that one exit with machine guns. Those people were left with two options: stay in the room and burn to death, or break for the door to escape and into a hail of bullets. The agents murdered those people in the most gruesome fashion, giving them no option but to die the most horrible of deaths: to be cooked alive. Why....I ask, WHY were those agents firing automatic weapons into a burning room full of people? What other objective could there have been but to murder them? Any sane group would have backed off and let the people flee out of the burning building, but only someone who was bent on outright murder would shoot people that are dying in a burning building. They were not shooting out of some kind of defense, they were shooting fish in a barrel. That is nothing less than murder, period.

thaddeus

 

[Phillip]

Why Thad? I'll give you a hint. Revenge. Those ATF guys got thier asses kicked, and rightly so. Now I don't condone the killing of Federal agents or any other LE officers, but the fact is that those guys screwed the pooch big time, and then were looking for payback. They were grandstanding for the media on scene, and the Davidians were not only armed, but prepared to defend themselves. Unfortunately for them, the Feds have vastly greater resouces and superior equipment. It is a shame to say the least, that those agents and Davidians got killed for someone elses agenda. It is even more shameful the way the public has been deceived about the whole incident.
One part of "Rules of Engagement" which hit me was when that former ATF agent was in court giving testimony and told how he was disgusted at what the agency had become. He knew they were in the wrong.
What pissed me off the most was that other ATF jerkoff saying how they were outgunned 'cause those poor agents only had full auto MP5's and the Davidians were armed with rifles. BOO F-ing HOO!
And then that condescending d#%k head Schumer was saying that a flash bang was harmless. Like he knows about flash bangs.
I wish everyone would see "Waco" so they could see what this administration has been covering up, UFO's, Kennedy, concentration camps, what the "secret sauce" REALLY is. Well anyways those of you who have not seen this, please rent it, and show it to your friends.

 

[Sambonator]

I'll probably get a lot of flack for this... but... isn't it almost "normal LEO procedure" to murder those who have killed LEO's? I'm not saying whether this is morally, ethically, or legally justified, and I don't advocate this type of mentality. However, my sense is that the DA will rarely if ever prosecute cops who kill "cop killers," and with this in mind, LEO's will use any chance they get to take down the perpetrators.
Of course, this Davidian compound assault is something different; but I can see how LEO's could label everyone in the compound as "cop killers" and behave accordingly.


[This message has been edited by Sambonator (edited August 07, 1999).]

 

[Hal]

The why I have to ask is why did HBO air this? The views here are all the same. Reno and the Justice Department screwed up big time. The Clinton administration and Democratic party tried to cover it up. The media reported what the above wanted the public to hear. I'm still trying to figure out HBO's agenda on this. I would really like to hear comments from someone that is somewhat unbiased to see how they react. HBO is a large part of the gun control movement, along with Time Warner (cable systems).

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Want to feel your age?Check it out. http://web.superb.net/boy/age1.html

 

[DrJon]

Ivan8883:

You are closer to the truth that some may wish to admit. I've read more than one document that places a "high alert" status from Sep. 1, 1999 to Mar. 31, 2000. One of these was posted right on the U.S. Army site. All of them were posted on .gov sites. From reading some of your posts I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

Sambonator:

You bring up an interesting point. Most LEO's, and others, are in a position of not wanting to take a life and at the same time they can't let it become open season on them. In no way does that justify whay happened at WACO, Ruby Ridge, etc.... I would not want that job for all the money in the world.

-------------------

One thing I do belive happened at WACO was that it was a training ground. From what I have read, and by watching the video more than once, I'm pretty sure that I spotted some 'Night Stalkers' around the building. I won't go into who they are more than to say that the FBI's HRT models themselves after the Night Stalkers. If you want to know more about them go to http://worldnetdaily.com and do a search on Night Stalkers.

This URL below deals with their involvment at WACO.....

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/19990225_xex_the_military.shtml

Sorry, got a little off topic.

Jon...


[This message has been edited by DrJon (edited August 07, 1999).]

 

[thaddeus]

Whoa whoa whoa, wait a second. Hold the presses. I just looked up "Night Stalkers" on worldnewsdaily and unlike many here might think, they are not some conspiracy-nut make-believe group. They are an ARMY specops team who even did some interviews after the Kingsville TX mock raid that had everyone so upset a few months ago. This is the incident where they went flying into a town in very dark green/black helocopters at only hundreds of feet off the ground (low enough to strike a telephone pole) with no warning and attacked a couple of buildings for a mock raid. Many people here will think that this is another whacko conspiracy-nut fantasy, but this group is real and they openly admit it. When interviewed about what exactly they were practicing, this was the exact response (get ready to have your pulse race):

'Sanchez is a highly decorated Vietnam veteran with 30 years service in Navy intelligence work. He has worked with Special Operations and knows how they operate. He was asked by WorldNetDaily to describe the nature of the training mission.

"I can tell you specifically. In my humble opinion, based on my background, the scenario if I were creating this ops plan," he described. He gave his belief as to the scenario the Night Stalkers were working under.

"Martial law has been declared through presidential powers and war powers act, and some citizens have refused to give up their weapons. They have taken over two of the buildings in Kingsville. The police cannot handle it. So you call these guys in. They show up and they zap everybody, take all the weapons, and let the local P.D. clean it up," he said.

"In urban warfare, the militarization of the police, this thing got out of order. The citizens did not comply with executive order so and so. They refused to give up their weapons," he re-emphasized.

So, sorry to bring this up in this thread, but it may be related and it scares me.... a lot.

[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited August 07, 1999).]

 

[DC]

http://www.nightstalkers.com/home.html

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

 

[Colin Thompson]

Waco was a test and the American public failed. The whole country should have been outraged but nary a baa was heard from the sheople. The same goes for Ruby Ridge. Now that the sheople's apathy has been proven, there will be more Wacos. Christians, Patriots and gun owners will be vilified in the process.

 

[legacy38]

Frankly, I don't think that the military would follow orders to implement martial law en masse. I sure hope that they wouldn't. I'm just not ready to accept that we are to that point yet. I sure hope that I'm right.

However, I would not put it past Clinton to fathom such an action as an effort to stay in power.

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"God grants liberty only to those who love it and are always ready to guard and defend it." --Daniel Webster

 

[longhair]

FWIW I think there's enough "gung ho get'im joe" types both in the military and in LE, that they wouldn't think twice about doing whatever they were ordered to do. Against the outsiders, or the American people..

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what me worry?