Hypothetical Alternative Powder Ignition (the Old Fashion Way)

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Jamie Young

New member
If I hypothetically speaking put a fuse in a 30/06 cartridge and fired it threw My Model 70, would I achieve a drastically lower Powder Burn compared to a primer blast? Would Pressure still peak at the same rate? How much does the Primer have to do with anything other than starting a fire?
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
My guess would be that you would get a much flatter pressure curve, lower velocity, less complete burn, and a LOT of gas coming back out through the primer hole and back into the action.
 
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Archie

New member
SP....

If it's just an open hole (which it was), there was some gas from the flash hole.

Don't stick your face close to the fuse hole.

As an alternative, you might try front ignition. There's a good description of how to do it in the Wolfe Press book on Gibbs' rifles.
 
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Archie

New member
Front Ignition.

Basically, one installs a tube in the primer pocket flash hole.

Tap it out in an appropriate size thread. Thread a brass tube and screw it into that hole... after trimming the tube to clear the bullet when seated.

Load powder and bullet and primer in conventional manner. When fired, the primer ignites the powder in the tube and the burn actually starts in the forward end of the case.

Supposedly the burning curve is altered to a smoother, longer process. It also requires a special decapper and you can't use a conventional ball expander.

No, I've never tried it. I keep thinking I might.....


Wolfe Press publishes "Handloader" and "Rifle" magazines. They also do some books and pamplets. They have a website and my brain just shut down.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
"Really? I never heard of anyone saying gas blew out of a Flash hole on a Cannon?"

You're joking, right?

Firing a muzzleloading cannon results in a nice, pert, jet of extremely hot gas exiting the touch hole.

If powder gas expands evenly in all directions, how could you NOT get powder gas escaping the touch hole.

Answer is, you can't.

This would happen in any firearm. If you pierce the vessel in which the combustion is taking place , gas is going to escape through that opening.

That's why pierced rifle primers can cause so much havock in a rifle. When the primer fails, a jet of hot, high pressure gas escapes.
 
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Jamie Young

New member
I never thought it was Significant. Why doesn't the cap get blow off a cap and ball gun when the Rifle is fired? It doesn't cock the hammer back.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
If the hammer spring isn't strong enough, yes, the hammer CAN be cocked by the stream of powder gas exiting the barrel.

As for why it normally doesn't happen, the force of the hammer spring keeps the hammer down on the cap. The pressure coming through the small diameter flash channel doesn't exert enough force against the hammer to overcome the spring pressure.
 
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Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Why doesn't the cap get blow off a cap and ball gun when the Rifle is fired?
Click to expand...

You haven't lived until you've had a cap blown off the nipple and into the workings of a Colt or Remington (especially Remington!) cap & ball smokewagon. Must've been real exciting in combat or a gunfight... :eek:
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
If you happen to be around a re-enactment group firing a muzzle-loading cannon, please do not stick your head over the touchhole, unless you want immediate, direct, and very persuasive evidence that gas does come out.

And percussion guns have heavy hammers and heavy mainsprings just to keep the hammers from being blown back. I once saw a repro Colt Navy fire two shots "full automatic" due to a light mainspring. There is also a burst of gas from the vent of a flintlock, but it is usually not observed due to the flash from the pan right ahead of it.

Jim
 
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Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
Going back to the original question: The primer is a rather violent explosion, pushing a flame-front well up into the powder charge in the cartridge case. A fuse-system would only ignite those granules of powder adjacent to the flash-hole.

Today's rifle powder burning unconfined out in the open is a relatively slow process. The burn rate goes to milliseconds because of the pressure within the confines of the case. As pointed out, gases coming out the flash-hole of the cartridge case from a fuse-system, together with the very slow ignition, would notably reduce the peak pressure.

Sorta long-winded, but I hope this helps...

Art
 
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Poodleshooter

New member
You haven't lived until you've had a cap blown off the nipple and into the workings of a Colt or Remington (especially Remington!) cap & ball smokewagon. Must've been real exciting in combat or a gunfight...
Click to expand...
Having experienced this phenomenon in a '58 repro, I no longer wonder why so many rusty old revolvers turned up on Civil War battlefields.....[
 
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