How to?

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Navy joe

New member
How to?...stay out of jail

Ok, I love guns. Unfortunately I love military pattern weapons. The problem I see here is this, what if your guns are illegally confiscated by a federal agency because someone gives them a bogus anonymous tip about illegal weapons? What ensures these guns make it too the evidence room un-altered? As in how can I prove what parts were in my gun and in what condition when they left my possesion. A little trip to the unit armorer, drop in an auto-sear or something filed off and next thing you know I'm in the papers for being a nut with an "arsenal" :barf:

All my stuff is very legal, and I would never do something ignorant like grant search consent without a warrant, but still this bothers me. Best I can think of is to take pictures of everything and etch every fire control part in each gun, maybe tamper seal uppers and lowers as well as appropriate pushpins and screws. Now here is the far out one, what if I got an ATF agent in charge to inspect the gun and certify on letterhead that it was all legal. Could I then call him as a witness to attest to the conditions of my weapons? Would taking such precautions alert them to the fact that they're not dealing with their average retard? Thoughts provoked by recent threads on ATF'ers teaching college classes and doing what they do best, i.e. raiding innnocent people's homes.
 
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Dangus

New member
All my guns are completely legal, but the ATF would have a damn hard time finding them.

Taking pictures is a good idea. Document your purchases, photograph them, and give the information to your lawyer for safekeeping. Attorney-client privledge protects that material from being confiscated
 
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yankytrash

New member
I was thinking about that, and so far, here's what I've come up with:

  1. Documentation, Documentation, Documentation.
    Keep every receipt, and write down what it's for right on the receipt. Make copies of those receipts and keep them somewhere else just in case. Also, keeping a record book of some sorts wouldn't be a bad idea.
  2. Shoot often, with witnesses.
    Although this sounds like just another excuse to shootin, it gives you an advantage of witnesses to the fact that your guns are not firing full-auto, with dates of when/where this was witnessed. The witness need not even be any sort of gun expert, as long as they see semi-auto fire that day.
  3. Squash viscious rumors at every opportunity.
    The biggest thing I notice, being a collector of military weapons, is some ignoramous's comments that you have "machine guns". Like, "Oh man, you gotta go shootin with Nigel, he's got nothing but machine guns", or, "If the SHTF, I'm going to your house - you got machine guns everywhere!", or, "Where do you get all those machine guns, does the dealer know they're machine guns?"
    Those statements seem funny when first said, and you know nothing you have is illegal, but all it takes is one wrong person to hear those rumors and the next thing you know the ATF is remodelling your house.
    To me that is the most important. Don't laugh at those comments - instead, make sure whoever's there understands your concern about being raided over rumors, and explain to them that all your guns are legal to own and are not "machine guns" by any far stretch of the imagination.
  4. I think that stamping all your parts in all your guns' receivers would be a very good idea. Use the same mark on all parts for all the guns. The first thing that the prosecution will argue, though, is that certainly you wouldn't hand-stamp any illegal parts.:rolleyes: It's not fool-proof, but it'll make a federal jury think.
  5. If you show your collection to an ATF man, the first thing he will ask is, "where'd you get that?" As soon as he finds out even one military-style gun was purchased privately, you go on his mental "Watch this guy"-list. Perhaps showing it to a local friendly sheriff or an armorer would be a better idea - they could also give you some advice for this situation.
    [/list=1]
 
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Double Naught Spy

New member
While you can have documentation on your gear, and it is a good idea, short of taking pictures of your stuff every day, if they were to be confiscated, legally or otherwise, you aren't going to have much chance in updating your records to show the condition of your guns at the time of confiscation. If they are going to be confiscated, chances are you are already on your way to jail.

What an odd question. I am uncertain as to why you included all the specific parameters that you included. I see where you note in your scenario that the guns were military or military-type, would be confiscated illegally, would be confiscated by a federal agency, due to a tip about illegal firearms. This seems to reek of some sort of real event or fear of this actually happening because a threat along these line as been proposed Navy joe or someone he knows.

Documention of your guns is a good thing for a variety of reasons. For example, what if your guns are confiscated illegally by a burglar? How can you prove to the insurance company exactly what condition your guns were in and what gear you had on them before they were taken by the burglar?

How does the confiscation scenario play out if it isn't a federal agency involved, but maybe a state, regional, or local agency?

Additionally, the question posed by Navy joe really has very little to do with the specifics he lists. Such fear or distrust of the government or other people goes just beyond firearms. How can one prove that after being arrested for DUI that the cops didn't 'doctor' the blood test for drugs? How can you prove that cops planted the 3 kilos of cocaine in your home that they found there during a raid?

It can be looked at this way as well. How can you prove that the documentation of the status or your condition of your weapons was accurate at the moment of confiscation. How do the cops or later jury know whether or know you photo-documented your pre-ban AR-15 as semi-auto and then switched out parts to make it full-auto illegally?

Trust and mistrust really is a two way street.
 
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Navy joe

New member
You're damn skippy trust and mis-trust is a two-way street. Anybody care to tell me why I should trust a federal agency? Hell, remember that I am career military so I can tell you how many dishonest people there are at any level. People that wouldn't blink at ruining someone else's career or life if it made them look good. I'm sure the same is true with the ziptie tactical crowd, what better way to hone our expensive skills than to ruin someone's day. Oops, now we gotta make it look legal.

Now I well understand the concept of chain of evidence custody, in which a prosecution has to prove every step of where the evidence went once surrendered by the victim. Random urinalysis is a good way to see this in action. My problem is two-fold, first is who runs the evidence vault? I see a big fox guarding the coop problem there. Second is the fact that there is not(CIVIL FORFEITURE SUCKS! http://www.fear.org/ ) going to be a trial. Look at the AZ gundealer that got 300,000 bucks worth of guns thrown in a trashcan in a Batfart raid. That was a long time ago, over a ten buck license. He still doesn't have his guns, so he is guilty until proven innocent, and still has to fight for his much mis-handled inventory! How about how Bob Stewart was harassed, or this latest poor dumb man in Wy? I need every advantage I can get were I to end up in court.

For the overly suspicious, no I am in no actual trouble with the Man, just thinking. When you get mail for 4 different previous residents at your house its one thing. When you've lived there 5 years and the Sheriff still serves non-payment of child support orders to your door for those people, then you really think. Hmmm, what if they do something criminal? Do I get a no-knock for the wrong guy?

Back to the guns thing, Anonymous tips are a very bad deal and don't belong in a free republic. If someone isn't man enough to stand and accuse another openly, than he should not. As the legal system is now I could ruin someone's life by walking to a pay phone and saying to the proper authorities that I was in this persons house and I saw a plant that looked like weed and a machine gun. Someone could do the same to me too.

What of lady friends? There is one person on this board who won't get near 'em because of the danger to his gun collection. Since I'm now single, say I have a little falling out with some girlfriend who I didn't accurately assess their character. She goes to the courthouse and says the three words everyone loves to hear "He hit me" Game over. I'll be old and grey before I clear my name and get some of my guns back maybe. It matters not a whit that I'd never hit a lady. Guilty until proven innocent.

I'm just trying to illustrate how careful we all must be, the easiest solution would be to sell all my guns save one unknown one and just plan on collecting an arsenal later the hard way. I believe its a personal political decision, to actively own and shoot guns and not be afraid to say so. I figure fight for my rights now by exercising them or fight later for something won already 219 years ago. To that end I can't bury my guns either, maybe plan "C" & "D", but "B" will have to stay in the safe and "A" by the door. If I am investigated for my legal pastime, so be it, I've always been an honest fellow, though I do expect to go to jail all in the same. My bookshelf alone would do it, but since when is it illegal to read something?

I like the shoot often with witnesses option, apparently somebody here thinks they are an expert witness. I can just see it now, "Why yes your honor, he was just blazin' away with them there machine gun tracer bullet thingys, not right in the head that guy" :D


As to how can I "prove" someone planted evidence? I can't, you can't. It does happen, but I don't think anyone that's done it will post here about it. All I can do is do my time, all of it, no parole. I can be very patient. I won't need to prove it, because I will know.
 
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yankytrash

New member
I like the shoot often with witnesses option, apparently somebody here thinks they are an expert witness. I can just see it now, "Why yes your honor, he was just blazin' away with them there machine gun tracer bullet thingys, not right in the head that guy" :D
Click to expand...
That's why, of course, we need to go shootin again soon. We need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you ain't one a' those anti-American nazi-types, even though you been serving our country for years now.;)

Oh, and bring more tracers with you when you do. More fun than the 4th of July! I'm looking up tracer sources for loadin as we speak...:D

We're gonna start pushin dirt on that property tomorrow. That oughta give me enough dirt to make a berm so we can shoot tracers whether it's wet or dry.
 
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theberettaman

New member
I can add a personal experience here.Some months ago,my shootin buddy purchased a pre-ban S.W.D.M-11 9mm in the semi auto version.It was not in tip top condition and could not fire three rounds without a malf.It came with the screw on fake suppressor can.Basically he bought it for $120.00 because it looked cool.So I being more knowledgable(no expert but a tinkerer)than he,we decided to get a parts kit from the online cobray out-fit and just go thru it with new parts to see if it improved it.The parts kit was for the semi-auto,and all legal.The weapon was totally apart and being cleaned,parts being replaced being tossed,ect..Now for the nightmare! He had been at an auction and purchased a fifth wheel trailer to put on some property he had out in the country.We always go out there to shoot our pistols,bows,shotguns ect..Well as it turns out the trailor was stolen years ago and it had now been tracked down to him.At 8:30am the"knock" came on the door. Local yokels in SWAT gear and attitude,barge in throwing us on the floor,touting the tit in a ringer,come clean B.S. The trailer,and all contents were taken,including his and my weapons.The lawyers get a list of all the contents and low-and-behold,an unregistered fully automatic weapon,and supressor were listed.What the ?.The recieving stolen property charge was quickly cleared up by producing the reciept from the auction company,(he's still out the money and the trailer)my pistols,and shotguns were eventually returned to me after I produced recipts for them(always keep good records).Only after his brother-in-law who is a bean-counter in the BATF pointed out the parts-kit # and the "semi" stamped on the side of the weapon itself,and informed the "mayberry" sheriff's dept. that a faux supressor was the way the gun was sold,that the final charges of weapons posession were droped.As he had bought the M-11 from an individual and did not get a reciept,it was not returned to him and he was advised not to push it for the $120.00 he had in it.IT CAN AND DOES HAPPEN TO THE BEST OF INTENTIONED FOLKS.NO ONE IS SAFE FROM IGNORANCE AND ZEAL OF OTHERS.
 
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Nanaimo Barr

New member
things can get screwed up.. I found out last month that I was the owner of record of a Meth Lab in another County....

wish I knew I owned that place.. I could have sold it for big bucks....

even after the $6500 lein for the clean up that was on my credit report.....

I was told by the Assessors office that it would take a court order to remove my name from the title.

even the actual owner contacting them and telling them they had the wrong guy was not enough.. I'm just glad INS didn't find out I "owned" a meth lab.. they would have had me on the next bus out....

"this Barr guy ownes guns and a Meth Lab.. better bust his ass".....

THAT would have ruined my day
 
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