How much training do cops ACTUALLY get?

[Drjones]

We often hear the argument: "well, only police and military should have guns because they are SO well-trained to use them!"

I beg to differ. Based on what I've read here, news stories, and the like, its my understanding that a lot of cops aren't really that adept with firearms at all.

I know there are lots of LEO's on this board, so tell me, what magical, uber-tactical training do you guys recieve to make the public so awe-struck at your firearms proficiency?

I'd like to be able to say to the next person who tries that crap on me to say, "Oh really, fool? Actually, cops only get _____ amount of training, which isn't really that much" etc. etc....

Any other ways to rebutt this argument? (I know its easy!)


**This is NOT intended as negative towards LEO's, ESPECIALLY the ones that frequent these boards, as they are clearly not your average LEO firearm-wise. It is a simple question**

 

[Hkmp5sd]

My step-brother just completed the local police academy and began now has about two months on the job as a County Deputy Sheriff. In my opinion, he has not received sufficient training in firearms and tactics. He has all the basics in gun safety and when to draw his sidearm and when to use lethal force. I think he needs a lot more actual firearms shooting and combat type tactics such as is taught at Gunsite or LFI, and not just their basic civilian level courses.

 

[houndawg]

40 hours, including classroom and range time.

 

[SKN]

Minimum standards for every aspect of law enforcement training is mandated by each state's peace officer/public safety standards commission. Individual academies or agencies may require higher standards and this will include both recruit level and in-service requirements. Though there is no universal standard, 40-48 hours of basic training is common as is annual or bi-annual requalification.

Agency/head of agency/community priorities, fiscal and staffing issues all effect how much firearms training members of an agency will receive. Individual motivation also plays a part in attending scheduled training as well as seeking out formal training or practicing at their own time and expense.

Contemporary policing has a whole lot more to do with people skills, writing, knowing and applying statutes, carrying out the agency's program-du-jour and a myriad of things other than the application of deadly physical force through use of a firearm.

 

[Long Path]

7 years ago in my academy, it was around 60 hours, combined range and class time. Then there were seperate blocks for Use Of Force, etc.

In fact, at my academy, there was very little actual training, so much as there was proficiency testing. True, my class could, for the most part, actually shoot. (I got outshot by a pair of brothers who were simply spectacular shots. ) I don't know what kind of training goes on in academy classes filled with green neophytes that have never handled a pistol before. As for ours, we finished our firearms component with a pistol match. As we all knew it was coming, we all practiced for it. One of the aforementioned brothers admitted to me that he had shot over 300 rounds in practice the day before the match.

I'm very keen on Department and Inter-Department "Top Gun" matches for that very reason; if you want your guys to put in extra practice for extra proficiency, you need to get their prides involved.

 

[SW 586]

About 10 years ago my wife was required to complete 400 hours of classroom training to receive a cosmetology license to be a nail technician (manicures and such). Hair styling required additional training.
At that same time, the police department here in my town in southwest Missouri required something like 100 (or less) hours of training to be a police officer.
Hmmmm...what's wrong with this picture?

 

[TallPine]

That's why only cosmetologists should be able to own nail clippers.

Even with her license to carry nail clippers, I bet she still can't get on an airplane with them.

 

[Gomez]

In Louisiana more training is required to become a licensed barber than a cop! POST mandated training academies run 8 weeks (40hr work weeks, not live-in "basic training" style academies) Of those 8 weeks, 5 days are spent on firearms. Of those 5 days, 1 day/8 hours is spent in the classroom covering such important topics as "History of Firearms' where in you are introduced to such wonderfully useful trivia, such as the year of the first use of gunpowder, date of the invention of the revolver, etc,etc. On the range, you shoot the POST course. Again and Again until, hopefully, you can shoot a qualifying score.

There was almost no instruction given on basic shooting skills and gunahndling. If you could not shoot when you got to the range, you could not shoot when you left the range.

After completion of your basic training academy, you go back to your department and they may, or may not, have any on-going or in-service training. The department that I worked for had absolutely no in-service training and everytime they held qualifications (twice a year, theoretically) they would have a solid 25% to 50% fail to qualify first time up.

Cops who are well-trained, are well-trained because they choose to be. Not because of departmental (minimumal) standards.

Being a cop has no more baring on being competant with a pistol than being a truck driver in the Army has baring on being a "sniper".

[Absolutely, NOT edited for spelling.]

 

[Coronach]

My department is said to have the highest standards in the state as far as shooting goes. I have no idea if this is true or not, but if it is, I worry for the rest of the state…’cause, by and large, we ain’t exactly Jedis.

We do firearms qualifications 4 times per year (4 hours shooting, 4 hours defensive tactics), and there is a strong push to get away from “lets just all line up and shoot the NRA course like we’ve always done since dirt was invented” and get into more scenarios and reactive shooting. That’s great and all, but when we do the actual qualification parts, its all still too easy.

We do, however, take badges and guns from officers who don’t pass…and at least 3 recruits from my class were terminated due to an inability to put holes in the proper places on the paper.

Mike

 

[M1911]

It varies from department to department. I believe in MA the standard is a 16 week police academy out of which one week is firearms training. After that, most of the smaller departments have qualifications once per year. No real recurrent firearms training per se, just requalification.

There are certainly some departments that are much better than this. But many do just the bare minimum.

M1911

 

[Mikul]

My cousin is a Philadelphia police officer. Her firearms training consisted of one day of classroom instruction, half of a day of range practice, and they qualified on the second half of that day.

That is arguably 16 hours.

 

[bruels]

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the standards for firearms training are set in departments by the men and women least likely to be involved in a shooting.

 

[Jeff White]

In Illinois it's currently 40 hours for certification. It was 24 hours when I started in 1985 (went up to 40 that same year though).

The amount of training after the academy is totally up to the department and it's budget. Some do well, some almost never shoot.

Jeff

 

[mpfive0]

"We often hear the argument: "well, only police and military should have guns because they are SO well-trained to use them!" "

I would almost guarantee that you would never hear 99% of the patrolman on the streets say that. To the man or women they would say they are woefully undertrained in regard to firearms proficiency.

Most have alreay stated the basics for academy training, around 40 hours. But in regards to keeping current with the skill of shooting, most departments are almost criminally negilgent in not providing enough training.

My PD considers the quarterly qualifications (where a sworn officer need only put 35 out of 50 into a silouette - 70%, at varying distances out to 50') as their firearms training. If an officer doesn't qualify, they are given more ammo, and they retake the test, eventually they are lucky enough to land the 35. That is the exent of it, unless an officer takes matters into his own hands and gets training on his own, which many are forced to do.

It is a money issure for the PD, the administarion feels that if they put all the expensive training into a small tactical team, and we will be used for all the high risk stuff, regular patrol guys only need the minimum training. Occasionally the dept, will throw in some simunition/scenerio training once every couple of years for the patrol guys.

That said, those of us on the tactical team are the ones screaming the loudest, that every police officer, department wide should have the training that we are fortunate enough to get, available to them.

We train monthly (building work, entries, scenerios etc.), and then we must qualify with our handguns, and be able to shoot a minimum of 45 out of 50, on a much more difficult (yet more realistic) course of fire. However if anyone on the team throws more than 2, he catches hell. We also have to qualify with each long gun we might carry.

It would not be hard at all, for any responsible citizen to get themselves far more weapons training than the average sworn officer.

 

[Bogie]

Well, I know that I hate to go to the range when the local boys are getting ready to qualify, because they keep shooting my targets by mistake.

 

[4V50 Gary]

Back in the '80s, we got at least 40 hours of classroom and range training. Probably closer to 60 though considering the night shoots we had.

Some academies still only give 40. Met a deputy last year who asked for help in finding a coach. Just got out of the academy too. I asked what academy and what type of training. The academy was indentified and I was told that the entire firearms training block was given in one week! At least at mine, they stretched it out over a period of a month just to develop skills, allow you time to practice, and to maintain your skills. I gave the deputy some pointers which helped (better shooting stance, support hand position, etc.) that improved performance but was reluctant to do more than that since we're from different agencies.

Now, a distinction must be drawn between training and qualifying. Qualifying is demonstrating one's proficiency under a specified course of fire (designed by the rangemaster). If budgets are limited and the range time is limited (crowded urban areas with cities jammed up against one another and multiple agencies competing for the use of the same range). It's quite different from being updated, or transitioned to a new firearm (where you're assumed to have the basic marksmanship skill and the purpose is familarization with the new gun). It's also different from judgmental training ("shoot" or "don't shoot") which can be range or is done using a simulator (FATS, PRISMS, etc.).

 

[braindead0]

I think the guys in Cleveland get 1hour tops, a few days ago there was a guy 'barricaded' in his house with I believe his wife. I'd suspect that every opening on that house had two guns sighted in on it..

The guy walks out with a hunting rifle, brandishes it...10shots fired by police (last count I heard), 0 hits. From what I could tell the distance couldn't have been more than 18-20ft...

I haven't seen pics from the actual standoff, but isn't it usual to take cover behind patrol cars and use them as a rest..keep the exits covered..etc..

 

[The Plainsman]

FWIW....

Waaaaay back, when I received my commission as a deputy sheriff, I got ZERO firearms training, but that was almost back before they invented guns.

More recently, my wife and I went through a 13 week "Citizen's Academy" program put on by our county sheriff's department, where we went to the range. Two other senior citizens and I (all over 60) outshot all but one of the other Citizen's Academy members and all but two of the LEO's instructing us. And... it was a "shoot and move" course, not just standing in one spot. The high score for the day, was one of the other two senior civilians in the Academy group.

I have a nephew who is an LEO on one of the larger PD's in the KC metro area. Before he became an LEO, he had never fired a handgun in his life. He commented on one of his recent visits to his old Uncle's home range, that he fired far more rounds in an afternoon with me, than he fired in six months at work. I don't know if I've really showed him much in the way of additional shooting skills, but I think I've helped "tweak" some of his procedures.

So, without intending to "take a shot" (no pun intended) at any past or present LEO's on our forum, I would hazard a guess that there are LOTS of civilian non-LEO's who are at least as well qualified in every respect, as the average LEO, in the "care and feeding" of shootin' irons.

So there!

 

[vulcan]

I was shooting at a range where some academy trainees was getting remedial training to requalify. The instructor asked if I could move a few ports down. Apparently my firing was causing too much flinching among the trainees, the instructor said with a grin . I was only shooting a .22 & 9mm pistol

 

[LawDog]

Insufficient amounts.

My Academy was 460 hours, of which 40 hours were spent on the Texas Penal Code, 8 hours on the Constitution, 40 hours on the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure and 40 hours of range time.

We did the first 16 hours on S&W M10's to learn the basics, then transitioned to S&W 5906's for the remainder of the range time. We had two hours of night shooting (not pretty), about six hours of engaging steel targets from behind cover (mostly an exercise in speed, rather than tactics), and then everyone had to take an 870 and fire one round of birdshot, then one round of 00 buck and finally one rifled slug.

Just to get an idea of the recoil, you understand.

Now, my Sheriff was an absolute fanatic about shooting. We didn't get much in the way of benefits, but by God you got two boxes of El Cheapo 9mm every month, and may God have mercy on your soul if you didn't shoot it up before The Boss issued you your next couple of boxes.

LawDog