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How much skill do you thnk is required for...
- Thread starter 1stmar
- Start date
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
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1/2 moa is the same regardless of range. A minute of angle is 1/60 a degree which happens to work out to about 1" at 100 yards, 2" at 200, and so on..
The only thing that could conceivably make 1moa @ 1000 yds (10" group) more difficult than 1/4moa @ 100 yds (1/4" theoretically resulting in 2.5" @1000) is wind.
So the question really boils down to "on a scale of 1 to 10, how difficult is it to gauge wind at..."
The only thing that could conceivably make 1moa @ 1000 yds (10" group) more difficult than 1/4moa @ 100 yds (1/4" theoretically resulting in 2.5" @1000) is wind.
So the question really boils down to "on a scale of 1 to 10, how difficult is it to gauge wind at..."
Since F-Class is a score shoot and they don't post targets after a match just score be pretty had to speculate on what type groups they shoot.
This is how they post result
http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/natpdf/cp537-13.pdf
http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/natpdf/cp800-13.pdf
This is how they post result
http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/natpdf/cp537-13.pdf
http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/natpdf/cp800-13.pdf
Here's the stuff that causes groups to open up angular wise starting at the muzzle to 1000 yards. It's why a rifle shooting 1/2 MOA (inch) at 100 yards may not be able to hold 2 MOA (20 inches) at 1000.
Muzzle velocity spread causes vertical stringing. Example... .308 Win. with a 25 fps spread; about 1/20th MOA (inch) at 100 yards, 1 MOA (10 inches) at 1000.
Bullet's BC spread also causes vertical stringing. The more unbalanced bullets are, the more drag they have. The best match bullets have about 1% spread in BC caused by bullet shape and balance spreads; they ain't all perfect. That equates to a .308 Win. shooting a Sierra 175-gr. HPMK bullet out at 2600 fps to have .05 MOA vertical spread at 100 yards, .26 MOA at 1000. Note you'll need to add the spread caused by muzzle velocity variances to that.
Subtle changes in air density and speed (wind) causes more displacement further downrange as velocity drops, so that's another variable that increases with target range.
Groups from the best ammo shot from the best barrels tend to open up about 10% in MOA for each hundred yards past the first hundred. If your stuff shoots no worse than 1/4 MOA at 100, it'll shoot about 6/10 MOA at 1000 assuming the atmosphere is 100% stable throughout the bullet's trajectory. Best example I know of is the Lake City Arsenal 1965 7.62 NATO National Match ammo that would shoot about 1/3 MOA at 100 yards in the best match conditioned service rifles. It's 600-yard test group at the arsenal range with 270 shots in it was about 11 inches extreme spread; 1.8 MOA.
Then there's the compensation issue. When bullets leave on the muzzle axis upswing, slower ones exit sooner than faster ones. That compensates for the slower ones greater drop down range as well as the faster ones less drop. They tend to shoot smaller groups at long range than mid range.
Regarding the "skill" level. . . .
Benchresters shooting free recoiling heavy rifles at long range for groups don't need very much skill holding and aiming a rifle as it rests very still on supports pointed at the target and its aiming point doesn't wiggle around on target at all, maybe 1/10th inch at 1000 yards; that's 1/100th MOA. All they need to do well is read the wind and correct for it as well as shift the rifle after each shot to get the point of aim back where they want it then gently touch the 2-ounce trigger the rifle has. The rifle recoils exactly the same for every shot and it's muzzle axis is therefore exactly the same for every shot.
Bullseye shooters with equal accurate rifles and ammo as benchresters use shooting prone slung up to their rifles (David Tubb and other high master classified folks) hold their aiming points somewhere inside a 6/10 to 7/10 MOA area on the target. That's 6 to 7 inches at 1000 yards. No artificial support is allowed. They try to break their shots inside a 5 inch diameter area. David Tubb told me at a dinner one night he's happy if his shots break inside 4/10ths MOA; his dad, George sitting next to me said David gets shots off almost as good as he does.. Then hope they've positioned the rifle exactly the same against their body for each shot so its muzzle axis goes to the same place after the round fires and the bullet exits the muzzle at some angle. Nobody does this exactly the same for every shot. The best of these folks with a rifle that tests 6/10ths MOA at worst at 1000 yards will keep all 20 record shots inside 2 MOA, that's 20 inches, when conditions are good and they don't miss a wind change looking through the sights. Most of their shots will go inside the 10" X-ring but some will be close to the edge of the 20" 10-ring. So positioning the rifle, holding it still, breaking the shot inside a small area and doing it repeably for a 15 to 20 shot string is where the marksmanship skills come into play.
F-class riflemen are somewhere inbetween bullseye score shooters and benchrest group shooters. They shoot for both. Their best "groups" are between the bullseye and benchrest ones. With their rifles' fore end rested on something and sometimes the stock toe, too, they still hold the rifle against their shoulders to shoot it. It's fairly easy to see about what size groups they shoot on bullseye targets by comparing scores shot to scoring ring sizes. The F-class 10-ring at 1000 yards is 10 inches, the X-ring's 5. So a score of 200-12X means twelve shots were inside 5 inches and eight were inside 10 inches.
Once someone has been shown how to focus a spotting or rifle scope to see the mirage (heat waves moving at wind speed) wrinkling across the field of view about the target area, it's easy to see a change that's worth a half MOA correction. The hard parts estimating what the correction for the first shot is. Especially when the wind speed at the bullets highest point in its trajectory (several feet above the LOS) can easily be 50% faster than what it is in the LOS. And a given crosswind speed close to the shooter has more effect on total bullet wind drift than the same wind close to the target.
Muzzle velocity spread causes vertical stringing. Example... .308 Win. with a 25 fps spread; about 1/20th MOA (inch) at 100 yards, 1 MOA (10 inches) at 1000.
Bullet's BC spread also causes vertical stringing. The more unbalanced bullets are, the more drag they have. The best match bullets have about 1% spread in BC caused by bullet shape and balance spreads; they ain't all perfect. That equates to a .308 Win. shooting a Sierra 175-gr. HPMK bullet out at 2600 fps to have .05 MOA vertical spread at 100 yards, .26 MOA at 1000. Note you'll need to add the spread caused by muzzle velocity variances to that.
Subtle changes in air density and speed (wind) causes more displacement further downrange as velocity drops, so that's another variable that increases with target range.
Groups from the best ammo shot from the best barrels tend to open up about 10% in MOA for each hundred yards past the first hundred. If your stuff shoots no worse than 1/4 MOA at 100, it'll shoot about 6/10 MOA at 1000 assuming the atmosphere is 100% stable throughout the bullet's trajectory. Best example I know of is the Lake City Arsenal 1965 7.62 NATO National Match ammo that would shoot about 1/3 MOA at 100 yards in the best match conditioned service rifles. It's 600-yard test group at the arsenal range with 270 shots in it was about 11 inches extreme spread; 1.8 MOA.
Then there's the compensation issue. When bullets leave on the muzzle axis upswing, slower ones exit sooner than faster ones. That compensates for the slower ones greater drop down range as well as the faster ones less drop. They tend to shoot smaller groups at long range than mid range.
Regarding the "skill" level. . . .
Benchresters shooting free recoiling heavy rifles at long range for groups don't need very much skill holding and aiming a rifle as it rests very still on supports pointed at the target and its aiming point doesn't wiggle around on target at all, maybe 1/10th inch at 1000 yards; that's 1/100th MOA. All they need to do well is read the wind and correct for it as well as shift the rifle after each shot to get the point of aim back where they want it then gently touch the 2-ounce trigger the rifle has. The rifle recoils exactly the same for every shot and it's muzzle axis is therefore exactly the same for every shot.
Bullseye shooters with equal accurate rifles and ammo as benchresters use shooting prone slung up to their rifles (David Tubb and other high master classified folks) hold their aiming points somewhere inside a 6/10 to 7/10 MOA area on the target. That's 6 to 7 inches at 1000 yards. No artificial support is allowed. They try to break their shots inside a 5 inch diameter area. David Tubb told me at a dinner one night he's happy if his shots break inside 4/10ths MOA; his dad, George sitting next to me said David gets shots off almost as good as he does.. Then hope they've positioned the rifle exactly the same against their body for each shot so its muzzle axis goes to the same place after the round fires and the bullet exits the muzzle at some angle. Nobody does this exactly the same for every shot. The best of these folks with a rifle that tests 6/10ths MOA at worst at 1000 yards will keep all 20 record shots inside 2 MOA, that's 20 inches, when conditions are good and they don't miss a wind change looking through the sights. Most of their shots will go inside the 10" X-ring but some will be close to the edge of the 20" 10-ring. So positioning the rifle, holding it still, breaking the shot inside a small area and doing it repeably for a 15 to 20 shot string is where the marksmanship skills come into play.
F-class riflemen are somewhere inbetween bullseye score shooters and benchrest group shooters. They shoot for both. Their best "groups" are between the bullseye and benchrest ones. With their rifles' fore end rested on something and sometimes the stock toe, too, they still hold the rifle against their shoulders to shoot it. It's fairly easy to see about what size groups they shoot on bullseye targets by comparing scores shot to scoring ring sizes. The F-class 10-ring at 1000 yards is 10 inches, the X-ring's 5. So a score of 200-12X means twelve shots were inside 5 inches and eight were inside 10 inches.
Once someone has been shown how to focus a spotting or rifle scope to see the mirage (heat waves moving at wind speed) wrinkling across the field of view about the target area, it's easy to see a change that's worth a half MOA correction. The hard parts estimating what the correction for the first shot is. Especially when the wind speed at the bullets highest point in its trajectory (several feet above the LOS) can easily be 50% faster than what it is in the LOS. And a given crosswind speed close to the shooter has more effect on total bullet wind drift than the same wind close to the target.
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The F-Class Palma rifle target 800,900 and 1000yds
X ring is 10"
10 rings is 20"
9 ring is 30"
8 ring is 44"
7 ring is 60"
http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf
Here is what record setting group would look like
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html
X ring is 10"
10 rings is 20"
9 ring is 30"
8 ring is 44"
7 ring is 60"
http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf
Here is what record setting group would look like
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Are we so deep in esoterica that we can't even answer "scale of 1-10" questions?
TheNatureBoy
New member
Thank you Brian. Geesh!
Brian, good question. So here's my answers; two fold, o what skill's required to shoot consistently (85% of the time):
-1/4 moa at 100yds .... With a rest, 10. Without a rest, prone (like Tubb shoots), don't know, never been done (as far as I know, AFAIK).
-1/2 moa at 100yds .... With a rest, 8. Without a rest, prone, don't know, never been done (AFAIK).
-1/2 moa at 300yds .... With a rest, 9. Without a rest, prone, don't know, never been done (AFAIK).
-1/2 moa at 500yds .... With a rest, 10. Without a rest, prone, don't know, never been done (AFAIK).
-1 moa at 1000yds.... With a rest, 9. Without a rest, prone, don't know, never been done (AFAIK).
-1/4 moa at 100yds .... With a rest, 10. Without a rest, prone (like Tubb shoots), don't know, never been done (as far as I know, AFAIK).
-1/2 moa at 100yds .... With a rest, 8. Without a rest, prone, don't know, never been done (AFAIK).
-1/2 moa at 300yds .... With a rest, 9. Without a rest, prone, don't know, never been done (AFAIK).
-1/2 moa at 500yds .... With a rest, 10. Without a rest, prone, don't know, never been done (AFAIK).
-1 moa at 1000yds.... With a rest, 9. Without a rest, prone, don't know, never been done (AFAIK).
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I suppose, one point of esoterica may be in order....
A consistent definition of "shoot consistently".
3 shot groups would be different than 10, which is different than 30, which is different than 99% confidence....
A consistent definition of "shoot consistently".
3 shot groups would be different than 10, which is different than 30, which is different than 99% confidence....
That first half of my "esoterica" was in response to dayman's remarks:
The only thing that could conceivably make 1moa @ 1000 yds (10" group) more difficult than 1/4moa @ 100 yds (1/4" theoretically resulting in 2.5" @1000) is wind.
green_MTman
New member
what types of groups do people shoot at 1000,would they be good enough to hit the vitals of a deer.
in MOA theory a 1/4" group at 100 would be a 2.618" group at 1000 but that does not figure wind a what not.
in MOA theory a 1/4" group at 100 would be a 2.618" group at 1000 but that does not figure wind a what not.