How much damage has my friend done?

K

kealil

New member
Hello All!

Recently, one of my shooting buddies started reloading and stuck a Lead Round Nose in the barrel of his Shield 9mm. Instead of hammering it out, he dipped the end of the barrel into some molten lead and melted the bullet out. I have never done that and wonder if the barrel could be damaged or unsafe.

The process as he described it went like this: He started hammering the bullet out with no success, he used his RCBS pot and stated that the temperature was around 780 when the bullet was completely cleared away. The barrel never changed color due to heat but was quenched in water afterward.

I know that the tempering on barrels can be damaged by heating but I don't know what point that occurs for the steel of gun barrels.

Any guidance?
 
W

wogpotter

New member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_%28metallurgy%29

I'd go with a lot of damage. Temperature that high definitely will cause color changes he just seems to have blundered through the process not knowing quite what was going on.

Its not just the heat, but the cooling as hardening & tempering are both involved. Look at the temperature ranges part way down the article.
780 using what scale BTW the difference could be significant with numbers that high.:eek:
 
M

madmo44mag

New member
The pot was empty and he laid the barrel in the pot until the lead melted?

Just from what you state and the fact he water quenched the barrel the barrel is toast.
 
K

kealil

New member
Thank you for the words of wisdom. I was afraid that he had buggered it but wasn’t sure because of my limited knowledge in that field. I’m glad I stopped him from shooting it when he told me the method he used.

So on that note, are there any suggestions for the best source of a new shield barrel for him? I haven’t seen any on brownells or midwayusa. We haven’t called smith and Wesson yet but it doesn’t look like aftermarket barrels exist on a lot of the main sites that we frequent.

As an aside, he normally isn’t a “check this out” type of guy. Very good with technical projects and learns quickly but doesn’t always think things through before he goes forward.

Also madmo44mag, He didn’t put it into a dry pot. He melted some lead, dipped the affected end of the barrel in the molten lead, held it there until the obstruction melted out and then proceeded to water quench the barrel.
 
P

Pahoo

New member
Perhaps no harm done ??

Been thinking on tis one and really can't see where it did any harm. First off, sounds like this handgun was his. Not saying I would resolve the problem this way but it's his was and hind sight is what it is. Sure like to know how he came up with that one. ..... ;)

I'm far from being anyone's expert but until someone clearly proves otherwise, I'm going with no harm, no foul ..... :confused:

Be Safe !!!
 
K

kealil

New member
Hello Pahoo,
I’m sorry, I want to make sure I understand your post. Do you think that the molten lead didn’t cause his barrel any problems?
 
M

madmo44mag

New member
I may have taken a chance and used the barrel if he allowed the bullet to melt out in the fashion you described but the dowsing in water changed the molecular structure of the metal.
I have seen rifle barrel shot until they were smoking hot and evaporating the moisture in the air and allowed to air cool and survive to shoot another day.
 
P

Pahoo

New member
Yes Sir !!

Do you think that the molten lead didn’t cause his barrel any problems?
Click to expand...
That is what I'm saying but I could be wrong. As stated, someone is going to have to prove it. Again, I would not do it this way even if it was okay. Regardless, if I were buying this handgun, I'd have it checked out by someone who can say, beyond a doubt. .... ;)

Be Safe
 
S

Scorch

New member
Lead melts at around 620 degrees F, which is about like drawing the steel to blue color with a torch. I don't know about this one, but my feeling is that it should be OK.
 
P

Pahoo

New member
Back at you and what are your concerns !!!

kealil
You are the OP and obviously you have some concerns. What exactly are they and what is their basis. Is there something else we are you have not shared with us? Also, is this his handgun or yours? If this is yours, I'd be ticked off unless you gave him permission to do so. If indeed it's his and you are concerned for him, suggest to him that he have it checked out by a competent gun-smith of even the factory folks. ..... :confused:


Be Safe !!!
 
G

g.willikers

New member
The risk isn't just what the barrel will do with that next round, but at maybe the 500th.
If it's been weakened, no telling when the damage can manifest itself.
 
K

kealil

New member
Hello again Pahoo,

Yes, I do have concerns. He is a good friend of mine and I don’t want him to get hurt. I have seen some of the aftermath of failed barrels and don’t want anyone around him to get hurt if he tries to shoot with a compromised gun.
The main reason I started asking questions here is that I am unaware of the effects of those temps on the barrel itself. If that type of action was fairly common, then I could share that info with him and proceed with a check at the gunsmith. If it was a doomed action from the start then he could focus his cash on a new barrel.

The reason I am asking for him is simply because I have time to cruise gun forums and he doesn’t :D
 
B

BobCat45

New member
too many assumptions...

Is the barrel stainless? If so, we can assume it is probably 416R, which is commonly used for rifle barrels. And this is a pistol.

Note that by "assuming" we step out on a limb - it is a risk.

If the barrel is indeed 416R, you can go to https://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/stainless/cru416rs.html for the data sheet.

Lead melts at 621ºF - pure lead - but you said he went to 780ºF. At the end of the Crucible data sheet there is a graph of tempering temperature versus strength/hardness. Yield strength starts to drop, slowly, at about 800ºF.

I don't think he damaged the barrel by melting the lead out. But that is based on an educated guess - an assumption - about the alloy the barrel is made of. So - no guarantees.

It would be prudent to take the barrel to a local machine shop, after having looked at it carefully and finding two places - one that was not heated and one near where he heated it - that will not be damaged by a Rockwell hardness indent.

Have the machine shop punch hardness both places. If the readings are within a point or two the barrel was not affected.
 
I

IDAHO GAITERS

New member
As I remember the front sight ramps on the first Remington 721 's were silver
soldered on. Took a little heat to do that. Idaho Gaiters
 
M

Microgunner

New member
I don't know about the Shield but I've seen a laser thermometer pointed at an AR 15 barrel and it recorded a temp of 1500° without damage to the barrel.
 
S

skizzums

New member
yeah, I really don't think 700 degrees is going to hurt the barrel. my concern is if he made it brittle by shocking it with the cold water, not sure why he did that. but my gut feeling is, it'll be fine. BUT, you better believe the first fifty rounds are going to be shot from a string and a vice or a ransom rest if he/you have one available.
 
S

solvability

New member
I have had entire guns Melonited - works well - believe it or not some manufacturers regularly Melonite guns.:)

Ferritic nitrocarburizing is a range of case hardening processes that diffuse nitrogen and carbon into ferrous metals at sub-critical temperatures. The processing temperature ranges from 525 °C (977 °F) to 625 °C (1,157 °F), but usually occurs at 565 °C (1,049 °F). At this temperature steels and other ferrous alloys are still in a ferritic phase, which is advantageous compared to other case hardening processes that occur in the austenitic phase.[1] There are four main classes of ferritic nitrocarburizing: gaseous, salt bath, ion or plasma, and fluidized-bed.[2]
 
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