How can they trace......?

[stdalire]

Usually, in my country if you buy a gun they take the ballistic test "specimen" of the gun, usually 3 fired bullets from the gun.

If someone will replace the original barrel and use it for murder, can the authority trace whoever the culprit.

I've heard several stories but I don't know if for real. I haven't read any case like this being documented.

 

[EQUALIZER]

I don't remember what state, but the only case I've heard about this happening is a story on TV Investigative Reports where a cop planned a detailed crime in order to rape a woman. He saw a woman that he found attractive going through his town. He planned an alibie, then raced to where she was heading on the highway. He pulled her over w/his cruiser, handcuffed her, then raped her in the back of his car. He then murdered her using his revolver. Another cop drove by while he was disposing of evidence and so he called it in as the first officer at the scene.

During his cover up, he ordered a new barrel from the gun smith and removed the existing one. From lots of circumstantial evidence, they pinned this criminal w/a badge down and convicted him, to make a long story short.

As a side note, I have no problem w/ catching criminals using ballistics. I do have a problem with gun registration. There is far more potential for murder from an evil government against its people through tracing firearms to their owners than there is from murderers getting away w/murder because a serial number could not be traced. The fact that we can not buy a new gun w/ out going through a man using an fed firearms license who registers every firearm, makes it all too easy for national gun confiscation and genocide. Sorry if I got off of the subject.
This is such an ever present danger that sometimes I don't know when to get off of my soapbox.

------------------
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)

 

[dZ]

doen't 100 rounds of FMJ burnish the barrel enough to make the ballistic signature print different?

seems like a flex hone & some simichrome would too...

dZ

 

[Chuck B.]

Fire lapping!

 

[Mal H]

stdalire - If the authorities keep the bullets and the casings then it may be possible to trace a fired bullet/casing to a gun and then to the owner. The "fingerprint" left on a casing from the bolt face is perhaps even more useful than the rifling on a bullet. However, this is a big "may". If a revolver is used, the casings will probably not be left at the scene. And it would be very easy for a criminal to change the markings on a bolt face. The markings left by the firing pin, however, would be a little harder to change. On the other hand if you actually have the suspects gun, it doesn't take much to connect it to a fired bullet whether you have a previous sample or not. There are some very simple ways to get around the whole problem, but I'm not going to go there. Let's keep the criminals just as stupid and uninformed as possible.

[This message has been edited by Mal H (edited September 28, 1999).]

 

[orsogato]

stdalire,

What country do you live in that your taxpayer money is spent on doing that crazy test.

Bullet fingerprinting is pretty much "jive". It is very unrealistic to assume that a 3 bullet signature on a weapon will be the same 100, 2000 rounds later. Barrels wear.

That is also assuming you use the same bullet weight, type, every time. I have to think that a .30 cal 168 grain moly coated bullet will give a different "fingerprint" Than a 220 grain cast bullet fired out of the same gun.


This is just another scheme of registration for the anti gun, Global elites.

 

[LawDog]

Actually, during Crime Scene Investigation-type classes, it is stressed that you NEVER pick up a murder weapon by sticking a pen in the barrel (ala Hollywood). We were told that anything metallic or wooden shoved into a gun barrel could change the ballistic markings on the subsequent bullets fired from it.

LawDog

 

[Larry P.]

I've had antis before try to tell me that was the reason for registration, so that any crime bullet could be quickly traced to the current owner of the gun that fired it. I ended up telling them essentially everything mentioned here and one more thing.

Depending on who you listen to, we have between 200 and 800 million firearms in the US. Let's see, 3 bullets... thats potentially 2.4 billion bullets to attempt to compare your crime bullet to, and unless someone else knows another way, I'm going to have to assume such comparisons still have to be done by hand. Anybody wish to guess how long that would take?

I still hold the position that registration can only POSSIBLY accomplish one thing, and have regularly challenged antis to show me another one, and none have ever been able to.

 

[stdalire]

Orsogato:

I am from the Pacific Rim (Philippines).

In my country our "Firearms and Explosive Division" of the Philippine National Police really kept the "bullet lead" that was fired from your gun, aside of doing stencil on the serial number of the gun. A gun cannot be taken out without this one. If there are ones then it is a rare cases.

When I first had my licensed S&W revolver in the '80s I even witnessed that they will really fired the gun to the tube and they will take the lead wherever it stopped in the sections of cardboards. Still practice up to this time when I recently purchased .45.

So, it means there is an effective systems of them in tracing where a bullets came from if the gun is licensed or registered. Of course, they have learned from their US counterparts.

But with the explanations stated hereon it seems that this method is unreliable due to the continuous wear of the rifling.

But also, I've read one article in a book I can't remember only what book is that, where a ballistic expert explained that the other importance of rifling of a barrel is to trace easily where that lead originated. Even though how much bullets fired from the barrel, the marked of "sample taken" is still there. What put the authority in limbo only if the gun is not registered or cannot be found.

This might be good to law abiding citizens but how about those few bad eggs in the uniform who will take advantage of this.

Just my opinion.

Thanks


[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited September 29, 1999).]

 

[Nestor Rivera]

any body thought about SABOT and this scheme

true if the cops can find the sabot it will have marking on it, but the sabot is very light and will tend NOT to be near the point of impact.

Ultumitly it is just antoher hoop to jump trhough and a way of know where all the LEGAL owners are.

 

[orsogato]

another thing i didnt think about earlier is a high velocity bullet that will literally shatter on impact. Take for example a 6mm Rem or .243 winchester caliber rifle. Both shoot .243/6mm bullets. Take a 70 grain Nosler ballistic tip.

Push that baby around 3,000 fps. Once that thing hits tissue (In my neck of woods Varmint Cong the imfamous and elusive woodchuck a.k.a ground hog, bush pig, whistle pig et all)

Your 70 gr Nosler BT is pretty much shatered. Ceases to exist. Breaks up into teeny tiny fragments. Nothing left to trace.


just a thought

 

[TEX]

If the markings are distinct enough and the weapon is an automatic, and the right equipment is used any one of the following can be used to match a gun to a spent bullet or cartridge case; rifling from the barrel, breech face impressions on the the case bottom, firing pin mark on the primer, extactor marks on the case rim, chamber marks on the case, ejector mark or indentation on case bottom, magazine lip marks on the case as it slides off the follower (you can determine which marks were made by the feed lips when loading and which were made when chambering). This in addition to burned and unburned powder in the gun matching that on the base of bullet or in the spent casing, especially if it precisely matches any other unfired ammo you had laying around. Sabots eliminate rifling marks only if you find the spent sabot before the investigators do. A quicker solution, if you think you might have to compromise a auto-pistol, in what is in your mind a justifiable shooting, is to immediately after purchase, obtain a complete replacement upper and ejector and use it for carry, but always use the original for practice so that the amount of wear on both components match. If compromised, the new compromised upper is removed, then destroyed, and the old original upper is put back on. The throw a way upper must be purchased cash, piece by piece. Get rid of any remaining ammo of the same lot and even brand, including the range brass you picked up. Need to destroy the offending magazine also, no matter how much you paid for that hi-cap bugger. Keep in mind that all of this is super duper illegal. Not reporting a shooting, obstruction of justice, suspicion of murder, maybe even suspicion of pre-mediated murder, etc. etc.... If the shooting is high profile enough and the the FBI labs are brought in, you would be amazed at what they can find. If some gang banger tries to rob you and you draw that bad boy and light him up, ensure there were no wittness that give a crap and then walk away, the cops are going to figure it was drug or gang related. If you are caught later, even though it would be bad, an argument could be made that you fled and never told authorities because you were afraid of retaliation from his fellow gang members, cousins, brothers, father, etc... These could be real concerns. All of the above posting is for information only and not intended as advice, legal or otherwise, or as encouragement to do anything illegal.

[This message has been edited by TEX (edited September 29, 1999).]

 

[Mal H]

Ok, class, now on to lesson 2:

First, take 4.9 kilograms of Pu239 and mill it into 2 perfectly spherical but hollow hemispheres. Polish these to a mirror finish ...

 

[bruels]

This subject seems to surface about once a year, if not this forum then others. The exercise of buying replacement slides, barrels, etc., is not a normal practice for most firearms owners. It will raise suspicions in those paid to be suspicious. Remember, even if you pay cash, someone, somewhere will remember you. Even if you say you didn't, someone will say you did and then it goes down hill from there. Also, every link to the deceased will be investigated. If you had a grudge, a business deal that went bad, etc., the police will be at your door sooner or later.

 

[James K]

Hi, folks,

Tex is right, there are a lot of ways to connect a bullet and/or cartridge case to a specific gun, IF you have the gun.

In the old days, determining a match, or lack thereof, between a crime bullet and a test bullet of the same caliber required a comparison microscope and took about 30 minutes.

With computerization, it is possible to run comparisons with hundreds of bullets in seconds. It is probably now possible to fire test bullets at the factory and store the information for future comparison with crime bullets. The data base would be huge, but not an impossibility. Tracing the gun to a present owner will take a while, but it can be done and is done, routinely, every day.

Hi, Law Dog,

Whoever told you a pencil or a wooden dowel in the barrel will mess up the rifling is, to put it charitably, uninformed. I hope your department doesn't use the standard TV technique of playing with the evidence gun, then dropping it in a plastic bag, rubbing it all over and dropping it in the pocket. Makes me laugh everytime I see that.

By the way, fingerprints can be found not only on guns. Magazines take excellent prints, and good partials can be gotten off fired cartridge cases. Today, again thanks to computers, a partial is almost as good as a full set for IDing the bad guy.

Jim

 

[Hal]

Jim,
In a class on preserving a crime scene that I once attended they stressed the same thing Law Dog says. They went on to explain that the where and how the gun is found, is as much evidence as the gun itself is. The implication was that the investigators would know proper techniques for handleing evidence, and John Doe would only mess up their investigation and possibly taint evidence.
CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net

[This message has been edited by Hal (edited October 01, 1999).]

 

[pate]

Revolver + Magsafes