Housefires and Firearms

[Shorts]

My husband and I are a long way from our firearms. We are on the West Coast ready to leave the country for a 3yr PCS. Our firearms are at my parent's house in TX.

Dad just called said there was a fire this morning that started in his walk-in closet. He left the light on and it got hot enough to ignite whatever was near it on the shelf. The main damage was limited to the contents within the closet. But of course, the surrounding area walls, floors and ceilings, like the attic, kitchen, master bed and bath were also hit. Luckily no one was injured, it was just stuff that paid the price. He got in contact with the insurance guy, woh luckily happened to be down in the area for the day. So he came by and looked things over. Dad, poor guy, was pretty concerned with our firearms we had just sent him. He immediately checked the handguns in the case. Though the hard plastic case didn't fair so well, he said everything inside looked alright. He didn't mention the rifles, they were in their respective factory boxes.

I guess I really didn't have specific questions, just thoughts in general. Has anyone been in a similar situation? I imagine there might be responses like "He should get a real fireproof safe". Of course, who couldn't use one? The answer is, he was working on getting one.

Has anyone dealt with fire damaged firearms? What did you do as far as getting them repaired or replaced? I guess the extent of the damage determines what action is taken. I don't think our stuff is really hurt much, but just not being able to see things for myself has just got my mind buzzing. The fact that we were leaving the States in a couple weeks and won't be back for a long, LONG time also has me concerned that minimal damage now could grow into bigger trouble later (parts, finish, rust, function, stocks).

Well again, its just stuff, and that everyone is ok is good. I'm just thinking outloud.

 

[mete]

It all depends on the temperatures that they saw.No harm will come to steel parts to 400F.At 1400F they will be totally destroyed. In between ? it depends. They should all be inspected immediately .Those that are OK should be cleaned and lubed.

 

[DBOUNCE1]

gotta watch that stuff

 

[invention_45]

First, I'm not a firearms expert nor has this ever happened to me.

But, I've been in materials science for about 20 years.

Anything (gun, that is) that was inside a closed, unbreached (by fire) case could not have experienced a temperature more than the case itself did. This is a fact, not a guess.

If the plastic case was melted but didn't burn or char, then your guns are probably OK. If the plastic was burned or charred, but not completely burned through, then the same thing applies.

As far as I know, the important parts of the gun (barrel, chamber, firing pin, firing mechanism) are made of steel. Somebody else please correct me if that's wrong. That's what I was told when I bought both my guns at 2 different shops.

If that's right, then:

Most plastics burn or char around 260 degrees C, so that's as high as it got at the case IF the fire DID NOT burn through the case. That would mean the temperature inside the case (where the guns were) could not have been higher. That's not nearly high enough to damage steel, which starts to have problems at over 500 degrees C.

If the fire burned through the case, then all bets are off. In that case, you'll have to find somebody who's had this happen and knows what happens to guns that have been uncased in fires. But make sure they KNOW and aren't just guessing. Temperatures that high can change metals and could present a safety issue.

ANY ammunition in the rooms where the fire was should be discarded. With them, it's the gunpowder and primer chemicals that might have changed. They're usually fairly tolerant of things like being left in hot cars (about 50-60 degrees C), but you have no idea what temperature they got to in the fire. If it was over about 100 degrees C, you're probably asking for them to fail if used. If it was over about 200 degrees C, you'd be nuts to use them. Lead melts at about 330 degrees C, so you would not be able to notice any damage by inspection, even if the temperature briefly reached 300 degrees C. But you don't know what that temperature was. Dump'em.

I hope that wasn't too technical, but I didn't see any other answers yet. I've spent a lot of time with metals and plastics and stuff at high temperatures and seeing them work (or not work). So, in the absence of any other advice, that's how I would judge what to do if the fire happened to me.

 

[Shorts]

invention 45, thanks for the thoughts. That info gives me a foundation to understand and be a little more at ease with any results. I will ask Dad the specifics of the case/plastics. I know they've got a lot on their plate now cleaning up and rebuilding a bit, so I'm trying to keep the concern and action for our firearms at the proper priority level.

I know Dad had his rifles and shotguns in there as well, hopefully I can give him some info and thoughts about the ammo and conditions. He was proud of his new lever action Ranger 94. This past hunting season he took 2 doe. Not to mention the utterly trusty Remy .308 which served him for years prior and grandma's shotguns which he recently acquired after her passing.

They've had a lot come up in the last 1.5yr since I married and moved out of town. It's hard being far away from home that I can't immediately go and take care of what I can.

 

[Capt. Charlie]

Shorts

Denny Hansen is the man for this thread. A couple of years ago, he lost everything to fire, including most, if not all of his guns.

There's been at least one article in SWAT magazine on it, and the miraculous restoration of a number of his guns.

He's at the SHOT show in Vegas, but will be back Monday, I think, and I'm sure he'll have an interest in this thread.

 

[mfree]

You know, I just thought of something. There are products for welders out there, I think one of them is called tempilstik, basically markers and scribers that melt at a predetermined temperature.

Just toss one or a set (200, 400, 600) in the safe and look at them after a fire, you should then know how hot it got without fancy thermometers or instruments.


(edited for factual correctness)

 

[2400]

This might be a good time to buy a safe to store them in.

 

[barnetmill]

My two cents on this.

I was given a commerical 98 mauser that has the stock burned off it. The magazine springs and extracter were burned through. The action was slightly wrapped. A 22-250 round was in the chamber during the fire. My gun smith said that the heat of that fire not only removed the heat treatment of the action, but it had likely burned the steel so that it was unsafe to rebuild. House fires, especially with a brick exterior are over 1000 F.
Such fires can melt aluminum and many other non-ferrous metals. I wonder how some of the alloys used in S&W guns fair in fires.

If the plastic, wood, or other non-metalic parts of the gun are destroyed, a lot of caution must be used prior to rebuilding. A few hundred degrees could alter some heat treatments or so I have read.

I saw this same gun smith that I mentioned earlier rebuilding a .220 swift rifle. It went through a car fire. He had to straigthen the barrel since it had wrapped. He did by beating it against a section of tree strump. I have no idea how well that gun ever shot after that.

 

[Peeweester40]

He had to straigthen the barrel since it had wrapped. He did by beating it against a section of tree strump.

Nothing like using modern technology!

 

[epr105]

I never lost any to a fire but, I was worried about what if and asked my insurance agent. I found out I was only covered for 5,000 when I took stock I had much more than that if I were to replace my collection. Took out a seperate policy on just the firearms.
EPR105

 

[Bob41081]

I had a house fire in 2004. All of my guns were in a safe. the fire was hot enough that the steel warped about 1/8" in one corner. My gun did not suffer any fire damage per se but were left in the safe from Sat. AM until I looked at them Mon. PM The guns suffered extensive rust etc from the high humidity left in the house from all the water. All of my guns that could be repaired were coverd my contents insurance. I lost 2 that were beyond repair. your parents should check with the insurance man about coverage.
I would recommend that everyone check to make sure that you have "Replacement Value" insurance. While you won't get 100% replacement because they will depreciate your contents it is the way to go. The costs to refinish my gune swa in excess of $7K.

Bob

 

[Denny Hansen]

Generally, speaking firearms can be restored, but it can be a costly proposition in terms of both time and money. The fact of the matter is that in many cases it’s easier to simply buy a firearm again rather than go through the restoration process. Additionally finding someone who knows what they’re doing is not always easy. The steel must be re heat treated and then re tempered; it is not the same thing. Restoring them to the proper Rockwell (C scale) hardness is not a job for a novice.

The attached photos show my Kimber Warrior the day after my house fire, and after complete restoration. It can be done, but as noted above, may not be feasible.

Denny

 

[invention_45]

I absolutely agree with Denny. The strength of metals is a non-trivial thing, and is very related to their temperature history.

The barrel and chamber of your gun rely on said strengths.

If a gun barrel has become hot enough to bend, you have changed the metal it's made of significantly. If you then just straighten it, you are severely asking for it if you shoot it.

That's why I said that if the case has been burned through, all bets are off.

If you take them to a gun shop you might run into somebody who's never seen this situation and thinks he can fix them. Maybe he is considering all these aspects. Maybe not. I'd be really careful and try to err on the side of caution here.

I'd replace the gun if the case was burned completely through.

 

[Jim Watson]

There was once a shop in my area that made kind of a regional specialty of house fire guns. They refurbished some pretty sad specimens. There weren't many plastic guns or gun parts in those days so all they had to do was to refinish the steel, refinish or replace the wood, and maybe replace some aluminum parts.

Their guideline was the springs. If a gun's springs were annealed, the heat treatment of the receiver was suspect and they would reject it. There was no source of facilities or knowhow for re-heat treatment. If the springs were sound, even partly reduced in tension, the gun was considered safe to fix.

Most of the guns I saw there had been damaged more by water and smoke than fire; rusty with peeling stock finish, not charred. The first thing to do with fire guns is to wash them in fresh water, dry and oil to protect what is left for repair.