Hot 44 spl. in a magnum revolver

[Big Caliber]

Is there any problem with using magnum brass in a magnum revolver to create a load (with a given bullet) that essentially bridges the gap between the the 44 special high end loads and the 44 magnum starting loads??? I have not seen any reloading data for a 44spl +P.
I have heard it is safe to shoot standard 44 special rounds in a magnum revolver and it's okay to load up 44spl loads in magnum length brass, though there will be a little more carbon build up at the forcing cone. Also, when would "detonation" likely to be a risk??? The guns are a Ruger New Super Blackhawk and an S&W 629-5.

 

[steveno]

what powders are you going to use? I would stay away from the slow powders like H-110/WW-296 as they really need to use magnum primers and close to capacity. if you use Unique or some similar powder you will be fine

 

[Nick_C_S]

Is there any problem with using magnum brass in a magnum revolver to create a load (with a given bullet) that essentially bridges the gap between the the 44 special high end loads and the 44 magnum starting loads???

Essentially, no. It's not a problem particularly. But it's also not quite that simple. . .

I have not seen any reloading data for a 44spl +P.

Yeah, there's no such thing. I've always kind of wondered why not. There is quite a gap between 44 Spl and 44 Mag - I agree. And that gap is bigger than the 38/357 gap (from my perspective anyway).

I have heard it is safe to shoot standard 44 special rounds in a magnum revolver

It is. I (and many others) do it all the time. I have a 629 Classic 5," and I shoot almost exclusively Specials through it. Save for the occasional Mag load, just for the novelty of it. I would actually prefer if my 629 Classic was chambered for 44 Special (624 Classic? ), but that's for another post in the Revolver section.

. . . and it's okay to load up 44spl loads in magnum length brass

mmm, not really. Simply taking a 44 Special load recipe and loading it into 44 Magnum brass will likely result in low pressure. All else being equal, the more internal case space volume, the lower the pressure; and more specifically, the slower the powder's actual burn rate. This can potentially create problems from poor combustion and powder fouling (your carbon build up), up to a stuck bullet in the barrel.

Also, when would "detonation" likely to be a risk???

I don't know. Maybe Unclenick will chime in here. AFAIK, detonation is a phenomenon that can occur with rifles; but I've never heard of it with handguns. Now I wouldn't be so senseless as to believe that it simply doesn't occur with handguns; I've just never heard of it. I think it's associated with propellants that burn much slower than pistol powders.

Your questions suggest to me that you are a novice loader. And that's okay. We were all novice loaders at one time. I would suggest (not that you asked) that you stick with reliable published data - both 44 Special and 44 Magnum - using their respective cases.

After you try these loadings and still want something "in between," then start with a tried n true 44 Mag loading, that uses a relatively fast powder, and then start working down from there - using the 44 Mag case.

 

[Big Caliber]

Yeah, I've been a novice reloader for close to 20 years, mostly rifle. I never fudge rifle loads. I just wondered why there was a large gap in these 2 calibers. And why there is no +P loading for the 44 spl.
As for powder choice, I will definitely look into that B4 I decide to try anything. Thank you both very much for the info.

 

[Unclenick]

Nick,

I have to disagree with one thing you said unless you qualify it more specifically:

Simply taking a 44 Special load recipe and loading it into 44 Magnum brass will likely result in low pressure.

If you look at the SAAMI drawings, the two cartridges have essentially the same COL. 1.610" for .44 Magnum and 1.615" for .44 Special. They just move the crimp cannelures further forward in bullets intended for the magnum so the COL comes out about the same. This does not allow for a round nose profile (too long) in the .44 Magnum, but for the more destructive flat meplat bullets, it is just dandy. Indeed, you will find some jacketed and some cast designs with two crimp cannelures or two crimp grooves, respectively, so they can be loaded to SAAMI COL's correctly in either cartridge.

The reason the .44 Mag brass is longer is strictly to prevent the higher pressure commercial loads in those longer cases from chambering in a .44 Special revolver too light for them. You might well imagine, for example, that the Charter Bulldog would likely be permanently disassembled by .44 Mag pressures. (We should ask Clark; he's probably tried this.) It's steel is just too thin at the outside edges of the chambers, and its frame would be in danger of distortion even if, by some miracle, the chamber survived what is, in effect, 2.8 times its intended maximum pressure (this is going by the CIP measurement method, which is more trouble to use, but likely has better absolute accuracy than the SAAMI conformal transducer method in this cartridge).

So, the important qualification to making your statement about lower pressure accurate is that you use a .44 Special bullet crimp cannelure/groove with a .44 Mag case. Then the pressure will be lower. The finished cartridge will also exceed SAAMI maximum COL. If the bullet reaches 1.615" COL in the .44 Special case with that crimp cannelure/groove, it will reach 1.740" in the 0.125" longer magnum case using that same crimp location. This is the reason the Ruger Redhawk has a 1.75" long cylinder. It allows the extra long ammo made that way to be chambered without interference, where a S&W m.29/629 won't; the long rounds will protrude from the m. 29/629 cylinders and jam their rotation. Ruger made the long cylinder because the Redhawk is so beefy it has no problem with the higher pressure that extra powder space can be used to produce.

I like my Redhawk a lot for the above reasons and the fact it prints under 2" at 50 yards. But dag nab it, the m. 29 fits and feels better in my hand. Life is full of these tribulations.

A bit of history: Elmer Keith developed the .44 Magnum in .44 Special Cases in a big, beefy N-frame S&W .44 Special revolver. The gun and brass held up to it just fine. When the decision was made to produce what, in effect, is a .44 Special +P+ load, commercially, they went to the longer brass to prevent chambering in less beefy guns, as I described before. But there was no other reason. The .44 Special brass was up to the task just fine. So as long as your gun is up to it, loading .44 Special brass to any pressure level in between Special and Magnum is just fine. Ditto for .44 Mag brass. I prefer to do the latter as lead bullets in the shorter Special brass can allow a lead ring to form where the case mouths end in the chambers. That can prevent a magnum case from chambering before the lead is removed.

 

[Nick_C_S]

unless you qualify it more specifically

Yes, if they're loaded to the same OAL, the pressure difference would be minimal.

I meant that if the bullet was seated to the cannelure (or crimp groove) in both instances - so the internal case volume difference would be the difference in length between 44 Spl & Mag brass. Looks like the difference is .125" (1/8") according to Speer #14. 1.285 vs. 1.160

An extra 1/8" of internal case volume would result in lower pressure - all else being equal.

 

[SSA]

Hodgdon's website has 44 mag loads from 8000 CUP to 40,000 CUP.

 

[Kosh75287]

Old School...

You might try the old Skeeter Skelton .44 Special load. It was 7.5/Unique/240 gr. SWC, & Mr. Skelton reported that it delivered 950 f/s from the muzzle. Originally, .44 Spl. cases were used, but that load has been shot from magnum cases with no problems other than slightly lower velocity.

Alliant lists 11.0/Unique/250gr. SWC as maximum in .44 Magnum cases (1250 f/s), so you have quite a margin in which to pick your "+P" level for .44 Special-like loads. As you work up by 0.1 - 0.2 gr. increments, I suspect that your hand will start complaining, before the revolver does.

Remember, start low, and work up to "fast" slowly.

All the best.

 

[TimSr]

Starting lead loads for 44 magnum are often down in the Spec range. 44 Spec loads are fine in mag cases as long as you stay off the very bottom, and in mid range special load range. Stay away from H110/W296/MP300 and other magnum powders that require a near full case for spl loads in magnum cases. Severla have mentioned Unique which is great for everything from cat farts to upper mid magnum loads.

 

[g.willikers]

The Unique loads that Kosh refers to should satisfy.

 

[oldscot3]

Ten years ago, Handloader #236, August 2005.

I've rolled my own "spagnums" using Blue Dot with some decent results.

 

[black mamba]

My hybrid load is a 265 gr SWC over 9.1 gr. of HP-38 with a WLP to light it, in 44 magnum brass. Gives 1050-1100 fps depending on bbl length with great accuracy.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

I use 44 F.L. mag brass in & for both loadings. (44 sp & 44 mag) Simpler to keep track of my brass that way. Gave away all my 44 Special brass long time ago. Just don't see a need to hang on to that smaller brass. Clutters up my bench.

 

[Kosh75287]

I don't know why, but 240 gr. + bullets over 1100 f/s out of a .44 Spl/Mag. feels darned unpleasant to me, but 250gr. at 1150 f/s from my .45 Colt Redhawk is no problem at all. The .44 seems sharp and teeth rattling, while the .45 Colt seems more like a big rolling shove. Guess it's in my head.

 

[rclark]

The Skeeter load is excellent. It is my usual load for the .44Spec. I don't use it in my .44Spec CA Bulldog however. It is fine for my Ruger New Vaqueros and Flattops though. I also have shoot the Keith Load in my Rugers. Your just on the bottom edge of .44Mag with this load at 1200fps. I drop this in for my woods load. Normally I carry a .45 Colt in the woods, so, don't load/shoot the Keith load very often.

 

[Jim Watson]

Elmer gets credit (or blame) for so much.
His original top load in .44 Special was a 250 gr SWC and 18.5 gr No 2400 for 1200+ fps.
When solid head brass became available, he backed down to 17.5 gr. Pressure was "about 25000 lbs" (CUP these days.)

Phil Sharpe got up to 20 gr 2400 and only 19700 lb (CUP) with his design of 242 gr bullet but he laid them out with shorter bearing surface than Keith.

When the .44 Magnum came out, Keith wrote in 'Sixguns':
"I next worked out a hand load with my 250 grain bullet, cast 16 to 1, tin and lead, and sized .429" to duplicate the original Remington load with a charge of 22 grains of Hercules 2400... At White's Laboratory it chronographed around 1400 feet with average pressures of less than 34,000 pounds and extreme variation in pressures of less than 3000 pounds."

His idea of a light load was 4 gr Bullseye in Special, 5 in Magnum, and a medium load of 8.5 gr Unique in the Magnum; always with the 250 gr SWC.

Lyman shows Magnum OAL with 429421 as 1.710" which works fine in my M29. I cannot find a double crimp groove .44 bullet such as Unclenick describes and as Lyman made to the Thompson design for such folks as Skeeter Skelton to overload .38 Specials with.

 

[GeauxTide]

Have used 8.0gr of Unique in 44 Special Blackhawk and 44 Mag SBH in Special and Mag cases with fine accuracy. I've shot the load in 44 Spl cases in the SBH and it was quite dirty.

 

[Kosh75287]

That's odd, that the 8.0/Unique/250 load in .44 Spl. cases burns dirty.
When I reloaded for .44 Spl., the 7.5/Unique/240LSWC loads I made burned remarkably cleanly, especially for Unique (they went through a S&W Model 624, and a few in a 3" Taurus M431). I would expect a load that ostensibly develops higher pressure would burn MORE cleanly, not less. Does it burn dirty only in your SuperBlackHawk, or have you tried it in other revolvers? Are you using a very light crimp on these rounds?

 

[GeauxTide]

That's odd, that the 8.0/Unique/250 load in .44 Spl. cases burns dirty.

Nope, the load in SBH in Special cases burned dirty. Burned clean in Magnum cases.

 

[Ozzieman]

I have done it but accuracy suffered.