Hostage Situation...

[Drjones]

You're in a bank/restaurant/whatever.

One or two terrorists/joe blows/whoever storm in and take the place hostage, barricading themselves inside.

They are NOT heavily armed; they only have a pistol or two between them, maybe a long gun. (Clearly they're not very smart being so lightly armed, but I want to keep this simple)

You have your CCW (of course! )

How long do you wait, or do you wait at all, before you take them out? Do you take them out?

They don't actually kill or hurt anyone, just threaten to...maybe smack a few people around.

**YES, I know its a simple scenario, but I want to keep this simple**

 

[Oleg Volk]

The moment they are close together and turn their backs. This way #1 is done in before he knows it, and #2 has to fight for his life instead of offing hostages. Better do it yourself, or the FBI might fire in CS and burn the place down to save the children, then send in ATF to stomp any surviving pets.

 

[Preacherman]

The moment they utter that threat, or start acting violently toward the victims, they're toast. Sure, I'll be as tactical as possible, waiting until their backs are turned, etc. if this is possible, but there's no way I can afford to assume that their threats are not an expression of their intentions. Threatening me is the same as doing unto me, and I'm going to do my best to do unto them first!

 

[liketoshoot]

I would take them both out, no question (fi there are two). Timing and postitioning would be very important. Let's assume they are smarter than average (no fun if they're stupid), they would not be together at the same time, but spread to opposite sides of the lobby/area to cover eachother. One has a shotgun and a pistol, the other just a semi-auto pistol.

If robbery was their motive, the pistol-armed one would go around getting the money, wallet, jewlry, or whatever, while the other covered him.

Suprise is on my side, since they don't know if I am armed. If I was hidden, I would hit the one gathering the booty first - quick doubletap to COM as soon as he got fairly close to me. Without hesitation, I'd pump the remaining rounds into the other.

My CCW would either be a Glock 36 with 7 rounds of .45, or a Kahr PM9 with 7 rounds of 9mm.

 

[labgrade]

Too wide-opened a scenario, methinks.

Though ....

Personally, I'd sit tight & wait for any opening that'd allow me to "save mine own a$$" whilst not compromising same.

You spec'd out two-max ....

I'd wait till I could actually throw up on one's shoes (due to absolute fright-syndrome & that to draw the 2nd towards me in proximity - hopefully to beat me into submission) ...

Depending, I'd smoke the first right through his eye/s & the second (1/2 second later - whilst he was coming over to watch "the "fun") ....

depends.

Best I could ever want was for both of them to "come over" to watch some thing I'd set up because I was "too scared & absolutely immobile to do anything else" .....

I would be their "perfect victim" & allow everything else to flow from that.

I'd puke, I'd whimper, I'd beg & I would do everything they wanted - up till the time I smoked 'em where they stood = 3 feet away & totally unaware that they had tackled a lion(ess) - gender goes away at times like these .... )

Two perps = I figure I can smoke 'em away (no sweat) as I figure they'd never, in any way, suspect a Tiger In The Midst.

A dedicated terrorist though might be somewhat of a problem in that he/they might just decide that evryone there might be "a problem," .....

A run-of-the-mill bank robber ... ? Pssst.

A dedicated "terrorist" misght change the whole scenario ....

Best thing I could ever wish is some off-the-street-******* (alone) deciding to "take over" a"something." I'd play-act to beat the band & shoot him through the eyes first chance I got.

A hack & no matter other than the (other after-the-fact-crap I've already experienced) shootings) .....

Seen it before.

=s good guys living & the bad guys aren't =s a better outome of a bad thing. Win-win, all told, no matter.

 

[theberettaman]

Am I the only one with a CCW?
How long is the stand off?

Here's a quicky senario.
You mentioned barricading them selfs in.The one creating the barricade is most vulnerable.The hostage holder is tatically your first target.Double tap to him first and subsequent follow ups to the second.

Remember that once you decided to take action,you are resposible for your actions.I would seriously think of the safety of the other unarmed hostages first.Can you make a difference in the outcome bad or good?Do you save the day or get everyone killed?I agree the situation is too wide open or any one clear cut answer.One will only know if the situation arises.I do carry two guns so this might be of some help in the situation to even the sides up.

 

[El Rojo]

It depends. You have to survey the situation as you go. If it is a self seating restaurant, I would be near a door facing the cash registers (yes my wife knows where I like to sit). She and I might just take off out the door and say to the hell with that. If they are attempting to herd us around to barricade us in, I would take my first opportunity of advantage and take them both out. Barracade situations are not going to be over in a matter of seconds. If they start striking people, that is a good indication that they are willing to do more, and my timetable would speed up. If they shoot someone, then I most certainly would speed up my action. If they are just two thugs robbing the cash register, I might not do anything. If they start taking everyone's wallets, I might have to pull out my Glock 27 instead of my wallet. It really just depends. I am not real eager to get in a 2 vs 1 gun fight. Murphy has a bad law and you never know his outcome. I do agree surprise is on the CCW holders side. I am the last person you would think is probably strapped. You also have to take into account your background. If the cash register operator is on the other side of the target, what are you going to do?

 

[lonegunman]

A lot of bravado has been expressed here, but I think El Rojo has the right idea for a citizen carrying concealed.

Escape is a better plan than attack when you are outnumbered and undergunned.

My main reason for carrying is to protect me, my family, and companions. I am not a police officer. If I can get someone else out of a jam with minimal risk to myself, thats fine, but each man should be responsible for his own safety.

I think some people here would just get themselves, and other people, killed.

 

[LiveWire]

Drjones:

First of all you convince yourself that it's not a dream; that it's the real thing; happening before your very eyes, right here and right now. Then you try to suppress your booming diastolic/systolic pressures and rapidly accelerating heartbeat. Hopefully, they won't interfere with what you are about to do. Then you remind yourself that your wife and children may quite possibly never see you again alive. Wasn't that nice how your little girl kissed you on the cheek last night when you put her to bed after reading her a bedtime story? Then you make your peace with God. And when the window of opportunity opens up like a crack in the clouds, put a bullet into each perp's head at point blank range.

Ok. Just forget all the other stuff and put a bullet into each perp's head at point blank range.

Easy 'nuff?


Oleg Volk:

Interesting analogy. Don't take it personally, but I think your poster reflects poorly on your judgment.

I know you're not in the business of pleasing everyone, nor yet again those who might share another cause with you. And why ought you? But the FBI/ATF didn't torch the Branch Davidians. The Davidians torched themselves.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I wasn't at Waco in 1993, nor was I in Warsaw in 1943, but to the best my knowledge, it was a case of mass murder under the color of law. The main parallel is that ATF is gradually restricting my ability to have effective weapons (and they do more harm than the legislation requires them to). I don't care why they are trying to do this, only that they couldn't have anything good in mind for the encore. Nazis or any other control-freaks had that pattern of behavior in common with ATF.

The poster isn't mine, but I liked it and so linked to it. Here's how one of my friends phrased ithe same sentiment in a foreword to his book:

(Append to the PREFACE of the book: "KP or mKP: Noncommutative Mathematics
Of Lagrangian, Hamiltonian, And Integrable Systems")

* * *

In 1943, after a two-month stand-off, the German Nazi SS called up
military units with armored vehicles to finish off the Warsaw Jews on
April 19th, 1943.
In 1993, after a two-month stand-off, the BATF called up FBI units with
armored vehicles to finish off the Branch Davidians on April 19th, 1993.

This book is dedicated to the victims of organized crime everywhere.
All of the author's royalties from the sale of this book are assigned to
America's premiere civil rights organization, JPFO, Jews for the Preservation
of Firearm Ownership, Working to Prevent Genocide: 2874 South Wentworth
Ave., Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53207;

I find absolutely no difference between ATF employees, KGB or Gestapo staff. They are working for a repulsive organization which harrasses innocents as a matter of policy. The difference is in the degree of offenses and the number of people affected, not in intent.

Any ATF employees surfing TFL are welcome to explain to me how their work is different and more honorable. Any Gestapo or KGB veterans surfing TFL are welcome to lodge complaints about being mentioned in the same sentence as the ATF.

 

[LiveWire]

I can't speak for the ATF, KGB or Gestapo; but from the looks of that poster I'd swear a more dredging comparison was at heart.

The main parallel is that ATF is gradually restricting my ability to have effective weapons

Care to elaborate?

Even if that were the case, the question of restriction is fairly moot. I like to think that my Black-Talon-nurtured Kimber Gold Match is a very effective weapon, even with 8+1 rounds (which is as many as it'll take, ban or not).

Besides, ATF's responsibility is established by congressional action. ATF cannot enact a law, nor can it amend it. It can only enforce it. Aren't you barking up the wrong tree?

Sooooo, screw your favorite congressman.

 

[mrsMTN]

Preacherman, you have got to be the coolest chaplain ever.

 

[Cowdogpete]

I like the scenario.

My thoughts. I would wait and see what happens. If they are nervous acting and only smacking people, waving guns as an intemidation tactic; I'm going to let them take waht they want (why are they there? money, kidnapping) if they want the money, let have it and let them go.

If their intent is more senister, they want people or hostages, I will be the perfect hostage. I will not move, I will do exactly what they say and increase my odds of survival. If opportunity presents itself, I will take them out, but only if I can do it without the risk of taking innocent bystanders and only if I can get them both at once.

As for the ATF/NAZI analogy....

We need a seperate thread for this. I live 25 miles from Waco. 35 from the compound. The ATF were pawns in this game. Prosecutors wanted Koresh, they used weapons as a reason to get a search warant. Police knocked on his door to serve the warrant. He resisted. It escalated. Was it handled properly? I can't say I wasn't on site. But Koresh needed to be taken out somehow. What he did was as bad or worse than thr Gustapo.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Correct me if I got my facts wrong but...

ATF cannot enact a law, nor can it amend it.

...don't they "re-interprete" laws, pretty much always in favor of more restrictions (wallet holsters, for example)?

I also wonder if your interpretation of what happened at Waco is consistent with other anti-human behavior exhibited by ATF employees.

 

[Long Path]

I suppose, given that they've taken hostages, that there's law enforcement outside? So now they're desperate. And they've threatened deadly force on the hostages. (Well, heck-- I guess that's how one takes hostages, isn't it?)

Well, if this were just a discussion of what to do when you're sitting in the back of a restaurant during a robbery, I'd say "A day in which you don't have to cap somebody is a day well spent."

But if you allow a hostage situation to go on while you're a hostage, you're allowing the likelyhood to increase that someone's going to get hurt. And, the longer that you and yours are one of those hostages, the likelyhood increases that y'all will be one of those who gets hurt.

Find a helper. Get his/her attention. If possible, communicate that in a second, something will happen to Hostage-Taker A, who is holding a gun. Make clear (if such communication is possible) that your helper should attempt, if possible, to take possession of H.T. A's gun when he falls. Find out (if communication is possible) if your helper can do what needs doing thereafter. If not, fine; either find another helper, or tell your helper to remove the gun and get it to you or another hostage.

Wait for Hostage Taker A to get away from, and preferably out of sight of, Hostage Taker B. Engage H.T. A. Engage H.T. B. If H.T. B has not dropped his weapon and completely surrendered by the time you have brought your weapon to bear on him, neutralize him immediately. No warnings or offers. Every armed or possibly armed hostage taker must be neutralized as soon as possible. Don't begin such an activity unless you understand that it must, for the safety of yourself and everyone else there, be carried out all the way. Once the threats are neutralized, reholster, put your hands up, and go to the door, and call to the cops. Identify yourself, explain the situation, and ask them how they want you and the rest of the hostages to conduct yourselves while you come out. Understand that you almost certainly WILL have guns pointed in your direction as you come out.

Don't plan on doing anything or going anywhere special for the next few days. Do plan on calling your attorney at your first opportunity.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Interesting topic - - -

- - -And a well-put question. Not too many parameters, open-ended enough for some good discussion.

So, Please - - -LET'S STAY ON TOPIC. You wanna get into an ATF bashing discussion, or to be an apologist for them, FINE! Start another thread. I might (MIGHT!) even join in, but I don't think this topic should be hi-jacked over an illustration, any more than for someone's provocative tag line.

Please?

regards,
Johnny

 

[Gomez]

Ancient Chinese Secret

"There is ALWAYS one more bad person than you see. Plan accordingly."

OK, well maybe it's not a bit of ancient wisdom from the Orient, but you get the idea.

It is exceedingly common for bad guy robbers to plant an acomplice in the building. His job is to do nothing. Simply blend in and watch. And when Joe Snuffy with a CCW skins his smokewagon and starts blazing, Joe Snuffy gets a bullet in the brain. Just because you can act, doesn't mean you must act.

I'd suggest getting yourself to as advantageous a position as you can manage, preferably with cover and near an exit. If you can surrepticiuosly draw your weapon and keep it out of sight, great, but getting to the superior position should take precendence. And, while you are at it, how about mashing down on that #1 button on your celphone. That's the default 911 speed-dail on most.

 

[El Rojo]

Sorry, if there are two guys, there will be no warnings. If I am going to draw, I am going to shoot both men. The only hope either of them has if that I don't shoot them first and that immediately after shooting the one, the other drops the weapon and throws their hands in the air before I start taking up the slack on my 2nd or 3rd shot that is going to be coming their way. If they have the gun in their hand and have that dumb look of "What the hell just went wrong?", they are still going to get shot. There is no room for nice and courtesy in this situation, if you want respect, don't rob people. Stay safe.

And I didn't necessarily say I wouldn't help others out, but if it is going to cost me my life, I doubt I am going to do it. That might seem cowardish, but hey, I carry a concealed weapon, if they chose not too, they chose to be victims. I don't. I also am not a cop and don't get paid to help. When I help, I am on my own lawfully and liabilityily (not a word, but you know what I mean).

 

[Drjones]

Ask yourself this:

Could you really, truly, honestly live with yourself if you slunk out the back door, and all the innocents inside ended up getting killed? Or even if several of them got killed...

I totally agree that whoever CCW does so for their own safety, however, I also think it shows poor character to just say "Oh, tuff stuff for you...I'm going to leave you here to die and I'm gettin my armed butt outta here, sucker!"

How would you feel if your young child was in that place WITHOUT you, and an armed individual who COULD have helped out instead slunk out to save his own hide?

 

[El Rojo]

That's life. If there are two gunmen and they are starting to barricade the place, that means they don't plan on leaving. Why if they just wanted to rob the place would they make it hard to get in or out? Maybe they are going to kill everyone. Maybe I could make a difference, maybe I could not. I do know if they shoot everyone in there, then there is a chance they would have shot me too. I don't carry around my Glock 27 so I can go out in a blaze of glory. I carry it to save my life or someone elses life. When you are outgunned and outnumbered, sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to survive and that means run. This world is evil. Bad things happen. I will do what I can to try and change it, but don't expect me to get all emotional because I couldn't save a few lives. You do what you can or what you think you can do and you don't worry about situations you can't change. When criminals are determined to kill, sometimes there isn't much you can do. I carry a Glock to increase my odds. That doesn't mean I am invincible and some superhuman. That just means I have an edge over most knife wielders and small groups of unarmed thugs. When facing another armed person, there is nothing that gaurentees that person is not as well trained or as well prepared as I am. I might be better off than most inner-city holigans, but that doesn't mean I am going to stake my life or my wife's life on it. If I don't have an advantage and I can leave the situation, that is just the way it is. Life is tough.