HK/Walther long slides, same recoil spring assembly as 4". Educate me?

[wild cat mccane]

Both HK and Walther use their 4" recoil spring assemblies from their 4" barreled slides as their 4.5", 5" and 5.25" (VP9 Match).

I read on the HK forum that the VP9 Match and VP9L was a cheap move by HK for having not created a full RSA.
I read praise for Walther's ingenuity and simplicity for using the same RSA between all the PDPs.

So technically speaking, they both have lightened their longer slides to make the guns behave the same, but dwell time in the barrel is longer.

Technically speaking, is their an advantage to NOT sharing the same guide rod/spring assembly? Or totally doesn't matter?

 

[Jim Watson]

And Glock. G34 recoil column is the same as G17.

It is certainly a manufacturing convenience, you are just stuck with their ideas on balancing the function.

 

[44 AMP]

things that look the same may not be the same.

Particularly things involving springs. For example, an 18lb spring may appear visually identical to a 12lb spring, but functional results can be quite different.

Another thing to be aware of is that springs are almost never "just enough" to do their job and no more. Often they are quite a bit more, to ensure reliability under all conditions. It is entirely possible that the same spring that runs a 4" slide setup can also run a 5" just fine or vice versa. Sometimes the springs are specifically selected for a specific application, and sometimes its a matter of "this works so lets use it for both" only the factory engineers can answer that one for you.

You'd need to check the factory part stock numbers to see if the parts in the recoil assembly are actually the same between different models, or if they just look the same.


If as you suggested they have lightened their longer slides in order to use the 4" spring assy, and that changes dwell time, the question would be how much, if any, does that matter???

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know about HK, but Glock uses the same recoil spring assembly over multiple calibers and barrel lengths. Says so on the label (Single spring, generation 1-3.)

While I like shooting my 1911ish 9mms, I wish they had the lighter slides and skinnier barrels of the early Commanders; I think it would improve operation.

 

[TunnelRat]

things that look the same may not be the same.

Particularly things involving springs. For example, an 18lb spring may appear visually identical to a 12lb spring, but functional results can be quite different.

I believe Walther has explicitly stated that the springs in question are in fact the same, as in the same part number for both 4” and 5” models.


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[Forte S+W]

As an owner of an H&K USP45 Elite, I can confirm that it uses the same RSA as the standard USP, and that this was accomplished by lightning the slide. (The Elite's slide has a slimmer profile with more rounded edges.)

As for whether there exists an advantage to having different RSAs for models with longer barrels/slides, I cannot say. I know that there's an advantage for shorter barrels/slides, but longer barrels, I don't know.

 

[wild cat mccane]

I only ask because on the HK forum people are blasting HK for using the same VP9 spring assembly as they put in the VP9 Match. How that makes it cheap makes me think people see this as less better.

But then you head to the Walther forum and it's just ingenious that Walther is using the same spring assembly for the 4" as the, 4.5", and 5".

So it's not necessarily that *I* feel one or the other is better, I'm just curious. Maybe there is no answer since both the Walther and HK forums have competing opinions on using one assembly, same weight, across all slide lengths?

 

[TunnelRat]

As someone that once spent a considerable amount of time on HKPro, if their behavior makes you scratch your head it’s because you’re still sane.


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[44 AMP]

One man's meat.......

Some folks see using the same part in different model guns as smart, efficient, and saving money. Other people see that as taking the cheap route and not creating parts specific to the gun model, "just to save money".

HK could probably end or at least reduce the acrimony if they added the word "match" or the letter "M" to the NAME of the part when it goes in the match gun.

However, I can easily see the response to that idea, "Nein! Machts Nichts! efery change, efen ze little ones cost pfennigs, und vhy should ve vaste unser geld just to stop you zilly Americans from complaining? Zomething you are going to do anyway.... ".....

 

[Jim Watson]

Ve are vorking hardt to get people interested in our schtuff and quit shooting ferlinschlugger Chechoslovakian junk. It has not vorked yet.

 

[reddog81]

I would see it as an advantage for the manufacturer and of little to no consequence for the consumer.

If the gun works, what difference does it make? Some people complain about anything...

 

[highpower3006]

I would see it as an advantage for the manufacturer and of little to no consequence for the consumer.

If the gun works, what difference does it make? Some people complain about anything...

People like to complain no matter what. If it's not over one thing then it's about another.

I have a Glock 17L and a G48, both of which use the same spring as their shorter versions (G17, G43) and both go bang every time I pull the trigger. As long as they work what's the difference?

 

[JohnKSa]

In a locked breech recoil-operated firearm, the recoil spring doesn't have to be carefully tuned to operate. As long as it's strong enough to strip a round from the mag, feed it into the chamber and return the slide to battery and weak enough to allow the slide to travel back far enough to pick up a round from the mag, it will work ok.

 

[wild cat mccane]

So here is a question.

If the recoil assembly is the same making dwell time negligible, what is the advantage of the long slides?

ONLY longer sight length? For example, the VP9 Match is only 1/4" longer. Is that anything worth making a new version? Same with the new CZ P-10F Competition. Only a quarter of an inch longer.

 

[Jim Watson]

To misquote Pinky and The Brain, the same thing they do with every new product, try to sell you something.

I do wish I had hung on and got a S&W Plastic M&P Pro 5" although my 4.25" is not bad.

 

[JohnKSa]

If the recoil assembly is the same making dwell time negligible, what is the advantage of the long slides?

Depends on the gun. Longer barrel, longer sight radius, different look & feel.

Is it enough to make a difference?

Well, people buy the G19X over the G17 even though there's less than half an inch difference in barrel length and sight radius.

By the way, the VP9 and VP9 Match, according to H&K differ in barrel length by about 1.5" which is pretty significant. According to the H&K website, the sight radius is the same on both guns, however looking at side-by-side pictures shows that their numbers are clearly wrong. Looks like the VP9 Match has a sight radius that's more than an inch longer than the VP9.

 

[Forte S+W]

I only ask because on the HK forum people are blasting HK for using the same VP9 spring assembly as they put in the VP9 Match. How that makes it cheap makes me think people see this as less better.

But then you head to the Walther forum and it's just ingenious that Walther is using the same spring assembly for the 4" as the, 4.5", and 5".

So it's not necessarily that *I* feel one or the other is better, I'm just curious. Maybe there is no answer since both the Walther and HK forums have competing opinions on using one assembly, same weight, across all slide lengths?

Okay, this I can explain with ease... Heckler & Koch is a luxury brand which tends to sell extremely high quality firearms at a premium price, which it turn means that the majority of folks who own multiple H&K Firearms are individuals with a lot of disposable income. One thing that I have learned from my very well to do relatives is that those who are wealthy tend to view cost saving measures in a decidedly negative light because they have no shortage of money to spend on the very best things that money can buy, ergo when a luxury brand like H&K begins implementing cost saving measures, even if only for the sake of efficiency/profitability, wealthy individuals interpret it as the company "cheaping out" and become angry because such cost saving measures often serve to drive down production costs which are subsequently passed on to consumers, and the last thing that they want to see are filthy peasants purchasing the same firearms as them when part of the reason why they bought H&K firearms in the first place was for the sake of prestige, status, and to flaunt their wealth.

As an anecdote to illustrate my point, once upon a time one of my wealthy relatives was looking to order a custom desktop computer from my brother who builds such things as a hobby, and he was very specific that he wanted to spare no expense on it, so my brother had estimated the cost of the parts/features specified, and gave him a quote. The wealthy relative was surprised at how "low" the cost was, (which it wasn't really) to which my brother explained that he had chosen the very best parts at the very lowest prices because that's how he built his own PCs, and also that he was giving him a discount on account of him being family. To this, said wealthy relative became openly upset/offended because he had told my brother to spare no expense, yet he had done so anyway, and what's more, he had offered him a discount which he didn't need nor want. Ultimately, he had someone else build him a computer which my brother later learned was built with inferior parts, inferior workmanship, and was absurdly overpriced, yet our wealthy relative bragged about it and honestly thought that he had gotten the best PC money could buy because he had spent a lot of money on it.