Hi-power ammo over penetration, from one person to the next ...got proof?

[FM12]

From time to time we see articles or threads posting info on the possible and at least theoretical overpenetration of FMJ ammo, hi-power rifle ammo, etc, et al, where ammo goes thru the intended target into a target beyond.

I'd like to know if anyone has any empirical data on such incidences, and maybe a link to actual, truthful info posted on the net, perhaps? Would be interesting to see some actual data as opposed to speculation and theory. Thanks, FM12

 

[kozak6]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

 

[FM12]

Thanks, Kozak, but what I really meant was over-penetration thru soft targets like PEOPLE...where the round strikes a person and travels thru to hit another, unintended person. Bad title to my post, but thanks for the link. I LOVE the box!

 

[uzimon]

there was a case long ago a 223 went thru a ceiling, into an upstairs apt, thru a sofa, and killed a innocent sleeping man.
and it was a cops mini-14, iirc

 

[Manedwolf]

I have no doubt that 7.62x25 ball would go through someone and hit the person behind them if it didn't hit bone, being that it's usually moving at over 1600fps. But I've never seen any "cases", no.

 

[AAshooter]

Certainly I have no problem buying the overpenetration concern for long guns. Personally, I think it is way over blown for handguns. Your problem with handguns is generally under penetration.

I have heard of several overpenetration examples where they had poor shot placement. For example, I shot him in the hand and the round went right through. That is not really an overpenetration issue.

 

[The Tourist]

After the 1984 FBI shooting in Miami, there was lots of criticism and debate about this same issue.

It is my understanding, and my wife says that I don't understand much, that the FBI tried every commercial and military round by firing them through, ballistic gel, glass, fabric, etc. in search of the most effect cartridge for law enforcement.

It is probably why the 10mm Auto and later the .40 SW got the spotlight.

If these tests are available to the public, it might be the best source of info.

 

[FM12]

Thanks tourist, and i FULLY understand, re: the wife!

Actually, I think the big broohaha about the M iami was the lack of penetration. I'll see what I can dig up.

FM12

 

[FM12]

Aashooter

Yeah, I think you're pretty much on target here (as would any AA shooter be, LOL), hits on hands, biceps, forearms would pass thru pretty much regardless of caliber. Good points! Thanks, FM12

 

[Mike Irwin]

Through and through penetration is a huge issue.

But MISSING the intended target and sending those bullets who knows where? Nah, that's not even on the radar.

I consider the flap about over penetration and hitting someone else to be incredibly over blown.

 

[FM12]

Hey, Mike, thanks for weighing in here.

I think you're exactly right here. But, at the same time, I dont remember reading or hearing of many cases of bystanders being struck. It seems there was an incident here in south Alabama several years ago where a hostage situation developed. The SWAT sniper borrowed a rifle and procedded to shoot the hostage with a .270. That'll ruin your day.

I know that tunnel vision can develop very quickly and anything not in your immediate sight picture may be in trouble.

THAT is why when I practice, at least on close in (10 yards & less) I try to watch the sights and the "background" also, to try to develop a "safe" shooting mode to not block out the rest of the world.

Make sense?

May Lurper can shed some input here.

Got stories/data, there Mike?

 

[rwilson452]

The only time I have presonally witnessed over penetration was a man that was shot multiple times with a 9mm handgun at point blank range. Two bullets penetrated completely through the torso but did not penetrate the back of the heavy leather jacket he was wearing. The bullets were standard ball. As I was just an observer I didn't get to inspect any of the brass so I don't know the exact ammo used or the weight of the bullets. The victim was dead at the site.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

In the hunting party I used to hunt with... the owner of the property ( actually "Mrs owner" to put it in context ) one year dropped 2 deer with one shot from her 30-06... 2nd deer was standing behind the one she shot, & the bullet had enough energy to drop the 2nd deer after passing through the 1st one... I didn't witness the shot, but seems like she was about 100 yards from the group of deer when she took the shot from her deer stand...

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

It is my understanding, and my wife says that I don't understand much, that the FBI tried every commercial and military round by firing them through, ballistic gel, glass, fabric, etc. in search of the most effect cartridge for law enforcement.

it was my understanding that this is where the Federal Hydrashock bullet shined, & became popular... ( at passing through a windshield, & still performing at an exceptable level )

... of course I had to go out & buy some 125 grain Hydrashocks for for my 357 magnum, & around the farm, I was much less impressed with one shot stops on wood chucks, opossums, & other medium sized farm varmints than I was with a good 158 grain hollow point...

IMO, the bullet weight as well as the design should be taken into consideration in penitration or over penitration...

 

[nosualc]

A few years back, distemper was running amok through my in-laws' barn cat (quite feral) population. My in-laws asked me to cull the "sick ones" which was maybe 10 cats.

At about 50 yards, I took a head shot on one particular cat, and another cat 5 yards behind and perhaps 10 degrees to the right went down. I was very surprised by this, as I couldn't believe I missed the intended cat that badly.

Turns out that I didn't miss; the bullet passed through the skull of the first cat, and deflected into the second cat's spine. Both cats were DRT.

I was using a .22 hornet with fully jacketed bullets. In retrospect, a .223 with rapidly expanding varmint rounds would have probably avoided 'collateral damage'.

I know it's not people, but I see no reason why the same principles wouldn't apply if you scaled everything up.


-nosualc

 

[FM12]

Thanks, fellows, keep 'em coming...

 

[44 AMP]

The only place I have ever heard of concerns....

About over penetration (of handguns) is on the Internet, or in the ramblngs of some writers. Real world, one time my Dad asked about the 240gr .44 mag. All three of the deer he shot with them, all exited. I told him to try the 180s, but expect them to go clear through most of the time as well.

The problem is that handguns are hugely powerful, pentrating deadly instruments for inflicting lethal force. And at the same time they are weak underpowered, barely adequate unreliable stoppers that need all the help they can get.

reality lies somewhere in between.

Remember the rules. "Be sure of your target and what is beyond it". You make the decision to shoot, and a self defense situation does not absolve you of the responsibility to follow the rules. If anything, it makes it more critical to follow all the rules of proper gun handling.

 

[JohnKSa]

Non-expanding (or non-expanded) bullets from a service pistol class handgun can penetrate about 24" of ballistic gel. Premium self-defense loads in the same general class are designed to penetrate about 14".

It CAN happen, therefore it's wise to take the possibility into account. I do think that a lot of people are overly concerned about it.

 

[Bud Helms]

Hi-power ammo over penetration, from one person to the next ...got proof?

Every time I see this title, I wonder why one would need proof. Isn't the possibility enough to warrant caution?

"... got proof?"

If a round can pass through a person's body mass, that's all the evidence you need, isn't it?

 

[TargetTerror]

If a round can pass through a person's body mass, that's all the evidence you need, isn't it?

I have to agree with Bud. I don't think anyone would argue that over penetration is never a factor. With certain rounds (possibly even ANY round?), over penetration is a very real possibility.

If you need to shoot a perp in a crowded area, there is a very real chance that you can hit a bystander located behind the perp via over penetration. Even if no one on this board provides an example, would you really want to test the theory?