Help with WW1 Colt 1911

[cobra81]

I have an opportunity to buy this Colt 1911 from a friend, but my knowledge of USGI 1911's is slim. If the serial number lookup site is correct, this pistol would be from 1918. I've attached photos of the pistol, and would appreciate any input on your observations of it, good or bad, as well as a general opinion of its value. Thanks!

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The mainspring housing is an A1 (post-WW1 vintage) style and doesn't belong on the pistol. It should be a smooth, straight MSH. The magazine pouch looks too clean to be believed -- I'd guess it's almost certainly a reproduction.

I think the grips look much too nice to be WW1 vintage, and the color doesn't look right. They should be Walnut -- those look to me like either Cocobolo or Mahogany.

I can't help with a value estimation. I can't afford a genuine M1911, so I don't follow the prices.

 

[gyvel]

Hammer, grip safety, mainspring housing, grips and grips screws are not original to a 1911.

However, they are all easily replaced with correct parts to bring the gun back to "original."

Value as is, assuming the gun is not refinished, would be in the 12-1300 range in my neck of the woods.

Hard to tell about the mag pouch, as many NOS pouches are available for a few dollars. It really doesn't alter the value either way.

 

[cobra81]

Should have mentioned, the grips on the pistol are aftermarket. He has taken the original darker grips off and I would get them. He showed them to me, and they look right.
So it's probably been re- arsenaled a time or two, and is a typical mixmaster, is what I'm understanding?

 

[agtman]

A true 1911 of that era should have a flat MSH, and the grips and the several other small parts Gyvel noted are not correct for an original WW1 Colt 1911.

You're looking at a mixmaster of questionable vintage.

Offer $400 max, and be prepared to walk when the screaming starts.

 

[futurerider103]

I would be very skeptical on the finish being original it looks too nice. I also believe that the house on the slide is not correct to 1918.
Here is my 1918 and it's 1 of 5xx to go to France with our AEB

 

[cobra81]

Here are some more photos. Futurerider103, I wasn't sure about what you meant about the house on the slide being correct.

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[futurerider103]

Sorry I meant horse at the rear of the slide. In 1918 I believe the house was supposed to be where mine is in the middle

 

[futurerider103]

Also it should have a magazine that is 2 tone and has a lanyard holder on the magazine itself. Mine isn't pictured

 

[Aguila Blanca]

So it's probably been re- arsenaled a time or two, and is a typical mixmaster, is what I'm understanding?

That may be your understanding, but I don't think that's the case. I don't see any marks to indicate an arsenal refurbishment. And the finish is MUCH too nice for it to have been a unit-level rebuild. Futurerider103 suggested a refinish, and that was my immediate impression, as well. It looks much too nice to be original yet have all those incorrect parts.

I think Futureman103 meant "horse," not "house." The Colt colt on your slide is at the rear, behind the cocking serrations. I think by 1918 the location had moved to forward of the serrations, as on the slide in futureman's photos.

The magazine should be two-tone, but I don't think the magazines still had lanyard loops by 1918.

Basically, what you are looking at appears to be a refinished mixmaster of unknown provenance, reworked by an unknown person or entity. It's worth whatever you are willing to pay for it, but it's not a pistol that collectors are going to line up to bid on.

 

[cobra81]

He is including 3 magazines with it, but none of them exhibited the "two-tone" look I have seen. They did all have lanyard holders, though.

With the S/N at 290414, from what I could glean from Colt's online data, that was about the time they switched from the rampaging horse being struck behind the slide serrations to the middle of the slide, so maybe there is a chance this could be OK? I could be wrong about this.

Also, the rampaging horse in one of the pictures appears to have been re-struck. I am not sure if this was camera jiggle, or is real. The picture of the entire slide, with the colt at the far right, does not seem to have the same double-struck appearance.

 

[lamarw]

Here is a web site you need to go to and study in detail: http://coolgunsite.com/

The barrel is incorrect, the slide with the pony without a circle around It on the trigger side of the slide is for pistols between 20,000 and 285,000. Your pistol should have the pony in the middle of the slide. I think your pistol is beyond 285,000 if it tracks to be of 1918 production by the serial number.

I agree with what others have posted. It is very much a mix-matched pistol.

Not only is it not of any collector value, they are not even recommended for a range gun. The best the seller could do with this pistol, is break it u and sell for parts. He will get good money for the slide alone and more for the frame.

Do a lot of research prior to buying. You can loose your butt unless you know what you are doing.

 

[agtman]

He is including 3 magazines with it, but none of them exhibited the "two-tone" look I have seen. They did all have lanyard holders, though.

That's because those 3 are Chi-Com repros, lanyards or not.

True original Colt 1911 mags of that era, the early lanyards ones and the later non-lanyards ones, all had that two-tone finish.

Here's an all-correct 1918 Colt with three two-tone (non-lanyard) mags:

 

[RickB]

Pistols were repaired and had parts replaced in piecemeal fashion, without any rebuild marks.
I have a M1911 that my dad bought from Uncle Sam in the '60s, shipped straight from a government arsenal, with the original blued finish but with a WWII-era replacement barrel and M1911A1 grip safety.
Your slide might be original to the gun. There were two features changed during 1918, the location of the rampant Colt and the shape of the "stirrup cuts" on the slide.
Most sources say that somewhere around serial number 275k, the horse was moved from the rear of the slide to the middle, and the stirrup cuts changed to the longer, sloping profile still used on Colts today. For a period of time, slides were made with a mix of features, so your 290k serial *might* correctly have a slide with late, early, or mixed features. My 296k has the horse in the middle, but the early stirrup cuts, but I think my serial is probably too high for the slide to be original to the frame.
Your gun looks refinished, and a fairly certain way to tell is to look at the polishing "grain" on the frame. Originally, the frame was polished fore-aft above the mag release, and polished up-down below, so there is a very visible change in the pattern; if the polish is fore-aft overall, it's a reblue.

EDIT: After looking at more pics . . . the slide shows early features front and rear, but Colt was making 1000 pistols a day at that time, so a feature change that came within a certain serial range could mean the difference between Monday and Friday, so it could be correct.
The HP-marked barrel is pretty rare, since so many pistols had their barrels replaced.
It's definitely not original, but it's in good enough shape that it could be restored, which would mean spending $2000 to make the pistol worth $1500, maybe, and even then, you shouldn't shoot it much.

EDIT: Lanyard loop mags were long gone by 1918. The correct mags would be two-toned. Original lanyard loop mags are worth some bucks.

 

[futurerider103]

When I get home tonight I'll take some better detailed pics of mine with the mag for reference. Just be warned I know my rear sight is not a ww colt

 

[cobra81]

Thank you for all the responses, and great input. I was planning to shoot this thing.....are you guys saying that's not advisable?

I got a few more photos:

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[tsillik]

Big question would be what does he want for it?

 

[runningbear]

From my United States Martial and Collectors Arms 20 April 1977.
Page 52 it's a 1917 there were 69613 Mfg. All by Colt all went to the US Army.
That is the frame where S/N is stamped. As for the rest of the handgun who really knows, as they were rebuilt many many times. And they just used what ever parts they had on hand.
I own one made in the same time frame, and i can't prove it but i found an article "came from his wife" with Sgt. Yorks 1911A1 S/N and both you'rs and mine were in the same lot. His wife said he brought his 1911 home but it was stolen.

 

[gyvel]

Measure the letters: "MODEL OF 1911 US ARMY " was enlarged from 3/32 to 7/64 between serials 260000 to 270000.

The Rampant Colt was moved from behind the slide serrations to between the patent wording between serials 275000 to 290000. It was not completely standardized until 290000.

It's still worth way more than $400.00 The poster who said that is dreaming.

 

[RickB]

Definitely refinished, but not buffed to death like too many are.
Not really a shooter or a collector, but a nice artifact. Not the kind of gun that you would hurt if you did break a part, but you could crack the slide or frame.
The mags are later, WWII or later.