Help with media figure.

Thumper

New member
I'm involved in a discourse with our local T.V. "Crime Buster." He publicly advocated gun registration recently as a means of fighting gun crime. I plagiarized a number of TFL posts in my response, but I believe I was successful in defending our position.

He now asks for an alternative means of solving the "gun crime problem." Any ideas? I've already recommended Lott.
 

TheBluesMan

Moderator Emeritus
You've already lost the debate, Thumper.

If you accept and argue the issue of "gun crime" you are giving legitimacy to the idea that guns are a problem. The problem isn't guns, the problem is crime.

Ask your reporter friend the following questions:

If we could magically remove all the guns from the planet, would we have a problem with crime?

If we could magically remove all the criminals from the planet, would we have a problem with guns?

Here's some other avenues:

Give him a list of all your firearms, their model numbers and serial numbers. (Not really, just make up something) Ask him how he is going to stop crime with the information.

- - - - - - - -

Ask him what he would do if he were the victim of a home invasion. Call the police? Why? So they can protect him? With what? Their guns.

Police are the gun-totin' servants of the unarmed masses. Too bad there's only one cop for every 2,000 people.
 

USAFNoDak

New member
Here's one idea. Somehow we define a "laundry list" of violent crimes, such as murder, rape, battery, robbery, etc. The "list" would probably be the most controversial, but I am sure one could be made up. Then, the law says that if you commit one of those crimes and use a firearm in the commission of that crime, you get a bunch more, non negotiable time, added to the sentence, and not concurrently.

For example, a robbery conviction gets you 5 years. If you are carrying a firearm, but don't brandish, that tacks on 3 years. Let's say that during the robbery you brandish a firearm, but don't fire it. That tacks on 5 more. If you actually fire the gun, that tacks on 10 more. If you hit someone, it tacks on 25 more. If you kill someone, you should be charged for murder in the first place, but you still tack on the the 3+5+10+25 for a total of the murder sentence time plus 43 more years.

Then we start letting out the petty anti drug users and dealers, but keep the kingpins in to serve out their sentence.

What we would want to avoid is any law that punishes you for merely possessing a firearm, when you are not involved in one of the "laundry list" of crimes.

Not perfect, but maybe a starting point.
 

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
I'm sorry, but I'm as against special "firearms bonus sentences" as I am against "hate crime laws" and for the same reason.

Robbery is robbery, rape is rape: it doesn't matter if the action was performed with a Ruger or a rutabaga, or if the victim was white, black, green or plaid.
 

Thumper

New member
Heven't lost yet, BluesMan. You'll note that I also used quotation marks around "gun crime."

Currently debating his "victim" statistics. Already made the point that guns are not the problem.

Come on, folks. I need valid arguments here on ways to curb violent criminal behavior. Especially that involving guns.
 

Guy B. Meredith

New member
Solving the problem of violent crime is one of those World Hunger type things that you cannot handle easily. It should be sufficient that you have done the favor of eliminating the false path or red herring of firearms control as a focus to free up the thinkers to pursue the actual roots of the problem.
 

Preacherman

New member
Thumper, you need to re-designate the problem. It's not the "gun crime problem": it's simply the "crime problem". Guns are incidental to the crime, as Tamara pointed out so well. (Tamara - rape with rutabaga??? The mind boggles! :D )

Criminals are going to do their best to commit crimes, armed with whatever "weapon" they can get their hands on. If a gun isn't available, they'll use a knife: if a knife isn't available, they'll use a club, such as a baseball bat: if a club isn't available, they'll use half a brick: if even that isn't available, they'll use their bare hands (and often rely on force of numbers to make up for their disarmed status). I'm a prison chaplain, and just this week had a multiple-inmate fight break out right in front of me, using locks tied to belts as makeshift clubs (and inflicting some fairly serious injuries, I might add!). These felons are already incarcerated for long terms, some of them for life, but incarceration hasn't changed their violent nature, and those of us who work with them (and who can't be armed in the prison, for obvious reasons) are in even greater danger from them than the average citizen on the street.

This points out a couple of home truths, that you might wish to convey to your reporter contact:

1. Guns are often the only defence available against criminals. The average citizen has scruples, and is relatively non-violent: against a man with a knife, or a baseball bat, or half a brick, he needs to be able to stop the attack, and that means having superior force available. Guns are often the answer to crime, far more so than the problem with crime!

2. Criminal violence is endemic to their nature, rather than to their weapon. "Gun crime" is a wrong description of the problem. If we re-label the problem as "criminal violence", it gives a much clearer picture.

3. I can assure you, from many years of talking with criminals on a daily basis, that they fear the armed citizen more than anything else! They are fully aware of the legal and regulatory restrictions under which police function, and they can plot and calculate how long it will take cops to respond to a 911 call. Often, they calculate (accurately) that they can do their work and be gone long before the cops arrive - and many of them have no scruples about ensuring that there are no witnesses left alive to identify them later, or give evidence against them! But they all tell me that they're mortally afraid of the "victim" who turns out to be armed, so that their assumed "*****cat" turns out to be a tiger! They know that most citizens (especially those defending their loved ones) will have no compunction about stopping them colder than dead meat, if they have to... and the smarter criminals will generally try to learn whether or not their intended victim(s) is/are armed, and will choose an easier (and safer - for them!) target if this turns out to be true. My evidence on this point is purely anecdotal, of course, but it's been confirmed by scholarly studies as well.

4. I assume your reporter friend, in asking for an "alternative means of solving the gun crime problem", is really asking for another way to control the guns that are out there. This is another opportunity to point out that the guns aren't the problem - criminals are!

Good luck with your ongoing debate.
 

ojibweindian

New member
Violent offenders should be removed from society. How?

A. Lock 'em away until they're too old to do much more than fart.

B. Lock 'em away for life.

C. Fry 'em.

I've heard it said that roughly 20% of criminals commit 80% of all violent crime; a variation of the 80-20 rule.
 

braindead0

New member
You cannot 'solve' crime.. It's something that has been with us forever, and will continue to be with us until some magic wand comes along to make it go away (ya never gnow).
 

USAFNoDak

New member
Robbery is robbery, rape is rape: it doesn't matter if the action was performed with a Ruger or a rutabaga, or if the victim was white, black, green or plaid.

I don't necessarily disagree with you Tamara, however, if some thug threatens to hit me with a baseball bat if I don't hand over my money, there is no chance that the bat will negligently go off and kill or injure me. Pointing a firearm at my face on the other hand presents a much clearer danger in my opinion. In addition, I believe a CCW'er has a much better chance to deter a robbery, rape, battery with a bat, blunt object or knife than they would if the perp has a firearm trained on the victim. Just my $.02 worth. Plus, this scheme would placate some of the "moderates" that we are at least trying to do something to punish criminals who use guns, while having little impact on law abiding gun owners. At least that would be the theory. We all know that theory and practicality are seldom one and the same.
 

Waitone

New member
I will reiterate previous posts. The problem is not "gun crime." The problem is "crime."

A few points in no particular order.
--What is the total number of crimes committed in whatever area you choose. Then what percentage of those crimes are related to guns.
--Has any other category of criminal activity been reduced by restricting the means of committing crime in that category.
--What LE's average response time to 911 calls.
--Please cite Texas (IIRC) statutes which require LE to protect every person every where at every time.

Criminals are economists. They will always calculate the cost of committing a crime vs expected return. They only way to change that behavior is to raise the cost when / if apprehended or lower the return. Putting people in jail at the victim's expense is assinine.

Perps should be responsible for restoration to the victim of property stolen followed by economic compensation based on the economic utility of stolen property. I will guarantee you if perps had to pay out of their pocket for their crimes they will change behavior. In my view we are simply playing games with criminals under current laws.

I suggest a radical revamping of how we deal with convicted badguys. What we're doin' now don't work. Returns for criminal activities are simply too high vs the costs for them to quit.
 
Top