Help the LEO?

D

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Rob,
In another thread you said,
QUOTE
Anyway--- Carrying a CCW/CHP/CCL definitely sends a postive message to most LEOs. Unless you also have one of those goofy little badges that say "Concealed Carry Permit" on it or something..... in which case "Playing Police" Syndrome becomes a consideration.
UNQUOTE

Somewhere between "Playing Police" and "Refusing to Become Involved" there is a rational way to help a LEO in danger. How about you LEOs share your varying opinions on civilian assistance for LEOs.

BTW, in Texas, refusing to help an LEO when asked is a punishable offense (misdemeanor). If LEO asks for help, you have ALL the powers he has (and LEO can "hang" for MY stupid, untrained act). If I "volunteer", I'm on my own (medically, legally, etc.).

Do I really have to wait until the LEO is "down" before I help? I don't want to wait until BG has LEO's gun!

Just call 9-1-1 and let BG stab LEO to death? (I can't/won't let that happen!)

Waiting until he asks may be too late. But how will LEO know I'm on HIS/HER side?

I realize circumstances vary, but what would be your general guidelines?
 
J

Jim March

New member
(opinion of a NON-cop here!)

MY view is, get way the hell back and take cover, carry a gun you can shoot well at extended range, and if it's 100% clear what's going on, plug the BG from so far out that the cop will need a second or two to figure out where you are and by the time he emties his/her clip in your direction, you've ducked.

Sorry, but...I was told to my face by a local street cop (Richmond, Calif.) that if his PD Chief started doing "shall issue" permits in emulation of other states, he and half the force would quit. But in the next breath, he said anybody NOT packing in this screwed-up town was nuts, and that if he wasn't a cop he'd pack illegally. Mind you, I'm white, so was he, and most of the town is black.

Forgive my low opinion, and a decade or two of successfull CCW implementation may repair the gross rift between cops and others existing now. Right now, I've got to be MORE cautious about PD ammo than goblin, and that's sick.

Jim March
 
R

Rob Pincus

New member
Well, most of the officers I know, as I've said countless times, are in favor of CCW.

That said, most officers I know would probably lean away from the suggestion of armed assistance from a bystander.

The most important thing is to make sure that the officer has professional help on the way. Either by calling 9-1-1 or getting someone else to do it.. immediately. Make sure that if you do call 9-1-1 you let them know that you are there also, what you are wearing and that you are armed. You will likely be told to stay out of the way, but even if you don't at least they have been told about your presence. This will also help in confirming your identity with the officer already on the scene, if he is in contact with the dispatcher.

Either way, Those "goofy little badges" are only going to lead to more confusion and trouble than they are worth, IMHO. I realize that they are very common in some areas and that the local LEOs may be comfortable with them, but I would suggest having a card as your primary means of identification, at least for traffic stops, etc...., so that there is no question that you are carrying to protect yourself, not trying to be a cop.

That said, I'm only a couple steps removed from "playing police" As I am a reserve officer, and I have the luxury of serving when and basically how, I want to. I spend a decent amount of time in plain clothes with departments other than my own. Whenever I am around a full time LEO who doesn't know me, I usually get a bit of a cold shoulder until I have "proven myself" or gotten enough endorsements from the right people to make the full time LEO relax. I am a credentialled LEO, often in the company of highly placed, well respected officers and I still get funny looks, so I am sure that a civilian showing up on the scene of a firefight and pulling out a gun is only going to make things even more confusing.

I am not about to tell anyone what they should do in such a situation, but.. If I were on duty and were pinned down or some such against one or more armed baddies and some dude with a Glock came running over, he might get shot. Furthermore, if some bystander was trying to get my attention to tell me that he is armed and wants to help.. he'd probably get hollered at and piss me off. Lastly If, in that same situation, shots started raining in on the bad guys from a covered position which was not firing at me... I'd probably be glad for the help. After such a thing happened though, don't expect to run out and get a big high five.. drop or secure your weapon, show your hands and immediately identify yourself as a good guy.. prepare to be handcuffed and checked out. Afterall, you could just be one of the bad guys who decided to capitalize on an opportunity to eliminate your silly partner and escape apprehension.

Even an Off duty officer who is caught in a situation like that would need to be very careful about how to get involved. There is no clear cut advice, but rememeber that the LEO in question is going to be keyed up and ready to defend his own life.. at that point all guns that aren't accomapnied by a uniform are likely to be seen as a threat.

------------------
-Essayons
 
E

Ed Brunner

New member
Rob;If I had just saved LEO's bacon and he wanted to cuff me he would have to be the most ignorant ungrateful person that I have met in years.
I believe that I would have to decline the honor.
Any Questions?

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
D

Doc

New member
Ed, the scenario Rob presented is not far fetched. I easily can see a BG taking an oppurtunity to appear as a GG. If I, as a LEO, happened upon such a scene, I would participate to the best of my ability. I am willing to be disarmed and identified at the conclusion of such an event. Also, the flashing of even a legitimate badge is not convincing identification- Doc
 
R

Rob Pincus

New member
Ed,
you've got to look at it from the LEO's point of view. He is responsible for the situation. If someone has a gun that is unknown to him.. even an LEO from another department who happened to be on the scene in Plain clothes.. he has got to establish an identity.

How would you rather do it? in a standoff? (in which scenario, guess who gets shot by the arriving back-up officers)
You know who he is... so, when the bad guys are finished or have surrendered, just holster your gun and sort it out.. Why should an on duty LEO have to take it for granted that you are really a good guy?

Maybe you mis-understood what I wa saying.. I never commented on how happy I would be to have a CCW help me.. not only would it have potentially kept me from dying and stoped the bad guys from getting away.. it would also make my little mission in life of making sure that 100% of LEOs and every other person in the country understand that CCWs are a good thing. I might even STAGE the damn scenario under the right circumstances! ;) (just kidding?)

------------------
-Essayons
 
M

Mikey

New member
Rob doesn't need rescued here but I'm going to give him some help he didn't ask for and probably doesn't want.

We live in the same State (I think) and I'm not a cop. I do have a permit and carry daily. I'm also an NRA and Tennessee Dept of Safety certified instructor who has been responsible for teaching the State mandated Safety and Liability class to hundreds of future permit holders. One thing stressed repeatedly in class was the proper way to conduct yourself when armed and in the presence of an officer. Slow, calm and deliberate movements and actions are a must if the situation has the officer in a state of alert.

Put your self in his place. Assume you have just been fired on and the chemical cocktail has been delivered in spades. As you reach cover and try to determine if you are about to be FUBAR, you look up and see some wild eyed guy with a gun coming toward you. Your brain says you have two seconds to react - what do you do?

My advice - worth what you paid for it -

First, be damned careful if you get involved in an already progressing bad situation. This goes double if the one you're trying to help is not a cop.

Second, if you feel compelled to help - do it from a position which provides cover from good and bad guys. Like Rob said, sort it out later.

As for myself - I will refuse to allow any BG to inflict harm to anyone if I can prevent it. If that puts me at risk or in jail, so be it. It would be morally impossible for me to do otherwise. But that is a CHOICE I have made. You need not make the same one.
 
E

Ed Brunner

New member
Mikey;You present a different situation so I will present a different answer.
If you are in a life-threatening situation and some wild-eyed person with a gun is approaching AND you have never seen him before,go ahead and shoot him.Its not the time for conversation.
This doesnt change my original answer.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
R

Rob Pincus

New member
Ed.. C'mon. Forget the LEO thing. Let's say that you are about to be robbed by threw non-descript knife wielding evildoers, one has a gun in his belt, you shoot him, but then the others draw guns that you hadn't seen. you al back behind an Engine block and they are around a corner.

Rounds are flying....

a few seconds later, you are no longer being shot at, but a guy is comng towards you telling you that he is on your side, everything is okay. You aren't really sure whether or not this guy is someone new or one of the original badguys. Are you not going to keep your gun on the guy and make certain of his identity ?? Aren't you going to want him to put his gun down or at least back in the holster and present some ID?
Aren't you going to demand that he explain to you who he is and what he was doing?

I now I would.
 
E

Ed Brunner

New member
Rob;You have answered all of your own questions.
I wouldnt approach ANY participant in a gun fight and I would have hoped that you didnt visualize that.
Any help I could render would be as Jim March suggested,from a safe distance.
Im still back to my original post.If I thought that I would be "cuffed and stuffed"
Id just as soon stay out of it.Talk about gratitude!

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
J

Jim March

New member
Ed, what'll happen AFTER the shooting is all over is, I'm gonna holster my piece, keep my hands in sight and yell "CCW HOLDER! Officer, it looked like you needed a hand there - MY GUN IS NOW HOLSTERED!".

Repeat as necessary.

If I get cuffed and disarmed until "the story comes out", it won't bother me. Now, if there's charges and I leave the scene disarmed of my BACKUP gun that didn't fire any shots, yes, that's pretty damn rude and I ain't gonna like it.

Put it like this:

Best case: they take samples of the ammo I fired, take my contact info, I walk. GOOD cops.

Acceptable: They take any gun I shot with at the scene for ballistics testing, so they can track who fired what at who. A Q&A period at the station while they "sort it all out" is OK, but I don't end up jailed. I might be a tad bummed, but in this modern era this isn't being all that poopy. In particular, being able to prove *my* rounds didn't go anywhere near the cop might be critical to pressing charges against the real baddies, especially if me and the BGs were shooting similar bore hardware. But...if I'm flinging .44s and the tangos had .22s, some grumbling on my part may be in order.

Poopy: they grab *all* my guns, jail me for the night or worse. Grrrrr. I won't fight, but I'll calmly, verbally complain and I'll certainly ponder a false arrest lawsuit while cooling in the can. (Note: my idea of being fully armed for CCW means front-pocket mousegun, serious fighting handgun, and since I've got the cool thing, my NAA MiniMaster stuck somewhere as a backup. It's the only "light weight deep cover mousegun" I've ever seen that is headshot accurate at 25 YARDS :D)

In all cases, I expect a signed reciept for all goods taken or it's criminal charges time.

Jim March
 
J

Jim March

New member
Rob, does my position in that last post seem reasonable?

Another thing: if they start in on "plan poopy" I'm going to calmly explain that if they treat me like dirt, not only am I not going to ever help an officer in trouble again, I'm going to report their behavior to the online gun rights activist community and my local NRA member's council, and several thousand other local gunnies will ALSO ignore any desperate straights they get into. But: grabbing any gun I shot if the calibers are close isn't enough to trigger this, IMHO.

Jim March
 
R

Rob Pincus

New member
I am with you 100% Jim.

Ed,
I don't know about the "Stuffed" part... general that happens in the federal pens I think...??! But the Cuffed part is a formality. I wouldn't take it personally if I were you, especially if, after this thread, you are ready for it. Who knows, just offering to let them cuff you if it makes them feel better might get you out of it!

As for the "confiscating" of guns, you can be pretty sure of losing the use of the weapon you shot (Temporarily...). Even an on duty LEO often loses his weapon to the lab after a shooting.

In some more rural areas, Jim's "best case" is possible, but I would consider his "accptable" to be closer to what would normally happen.

Jim's "Poopy" scenario would best be avoided by being 100% cooperate and even submissive from the moment the shooting stops. Don't try to explain too much, just answer the questions that you are asked. Everyone is going to be keyed up.. the calmer you remain, the better it will be, IMHO.

------------------
-Essayons
 
J

Jim March

New member
Right...the "temporary" part is linked to the "reciept" part...which is why confiscation sans reciept will result in major complaint and hassles (short of actual violence).

But cuffed right afterwards...ya, probably gonna happen.

Jim March
 
E

Ed Brunner

New member
Rob;Im shocked that you didnt realize that "cuffed and stuffed" is pure Roscoe P Coltrane.As such it is a Southern idiom for being apprehended and taken into custody.
And under the circumstances Ill still pass

I have put myself in danger for enough ungrateful people already.
Call for backup!

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
R

Ray VanderLinden

New member
Ed,
I work a Smallish town. I know that several of the people here would help in anyway they could. And IF I know you and you id your self I probably wouldn't Cuff you. If I don't know you you can expect to be at least disarmed not only for my safety but yours. Remember I will have back-up coming. They will have No Idea what has just happened other than shots fired. Their adrenilen (SP) charge will not be much less than ours, they are expecting to be coming to battle after all. Do you want one of them to see a unknow man with a gun standing near the man they came to save. Not a good situation.
As to cuffed Rob is probably right once I feel no threat I'll probably be to busy thanking you for the help to cuff you, and I may not have any left after the suspects are cuffed.
The main thing is that You will have a car and a uniform to Identify me. I have damn little to Identify you, except your word. I'm not saying you would lie, but I've been lied to by every class and manner and sex of person. I've even been lied to by a priest, so I tend to check when I'm told that grass is green.
But in the end I will say to you what I once said to the Lord.
Please help me win. If you can't do that, then refrain from helping my enemies, and leave the rest to me!
 
E

Ed Brunner

New member
Raymond;If it came down to it ,I'd help you.I am making the point that I dont want to be treated as a criminal. It is US vs. THEM and if I have shown myself to be one of US,I dont want to be treated as one of THEM.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top