HEAVY! Recoil! 45-70 Level 3, VS .458 Win Mag VS .458 Lott, VS .460 Weatherby
- Thread starter Zorro
- Start date
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
My .458 was tolerable. Stock design really has much more to do with it than anything else. Friend's .416 Rigby with a Coil-Chek stock was very pleasant to fire. Benchresting in a T-shirt was no chore. MPI still produces that design and the Bell and Carlson original style stocks worked very well also.
The recent article in Guns and Whammo on Ruger's and Hornady's dual introduction of the .458 Lott have certainly raised the bar on serious rifles.
FWIW, I understand that the .378 actually kicks (subj) more than most other rifles.
The recent article in Guns and Whammo on Ruger's and Hornady's dual introduction of the .458 Lott have certainly raised the bar on serious rifles.
FWIW, I understand that the .378 actually kicks (subj) more than most other rifles.
I have a Ruger #1H Tropical that used to be chambered in .458 Win Mag and then I had it re-chambered into a .460 Weatherby. You can definatly tell the difference between the two, especially in an 8 lb. rifle.
The big boomers tend to give you a big shove and in the case of my .460 it is a really big shove. I can tell you the bigger cased magnums that have to push all that energy throught a smaller hole do give a much sharper recoil than the big case-big hole caliber's.
The big boomers tend to give you a big shove and in the case of my .460 it is a really big shove. I can tell you the bigger cased magnums that have to push all that energy throught a smaller hole do give a much sharper recoil than the big case-big hole caliber's.
Preacherman
New member
My biggest beef with American rifle-makers is that they build the big bores too light! If you compare (say) a typical US-manufactured .458 Win. Mag. with a typical British-built .470 NE double, the latter will be almost twice the weight of the former. The felt recoil of the .470 is about half that of the .458 (for me, anyway) - much nicer, IMHO! Sure, carrying the beast is a bit of a pain, but the Brits reckoned that for a dangerous-game gun, you needed the ability to control the recoil and get back on target really fast for a second (or subsequent) shot(s), if necessary. No argument from me there...
One interesting thing, though. If you fire a .45-70 "hot" load (something like the Garrett Hammerheads, for example) through a Marlin lever-action rifle, it's far more comfortable for me, recoil-wise, than a typical .458 Win. Mag. through a modern bolt-action rifle. I can't use weight as a factor here, as the lever-action is often lighter than the bolt-action! Must be something to do with the different stock angle, manner of holding the gun, and weight distribution. Other African shooters have voiced the same opinion, so I don't think that this is just me. Any comment from others who've fired both?
One interesting thing, though. If you fire a .45-70 "hot" load (something like the Garrett Hammerheads, for example) through a Marlin lever-action rifle, it's far more comfortable for me, recoil-wise, than a typical .458 Win. Mag. through a modern bolt-action rifle. I can't use weight as a factor here, as the lever-action is often lighter than the bolt-action! Must be something to do with the different stock angle, manner of holding the gun, and weight distribution. Other African shooters have voiced the same opinion, so I don't think that this is just me. Any comment from others who've fired both?
Recoil
The velocity of recoil is one of the difference between 378 and the 458s' felt recoil. The 378 delivers its' recoil energy to the shoulder in a must shorter time span.
Those of us here that have used the Marlin lever gun with high performance ammo think it is unpleasant to shoot, due to its' light weight, small butt and stock design. However, its' handyness in the bush is a major plus. And as you know, recoil is seldom noticed when firing at game, especially dangerous game.
I agree that the old style Bell and Carlson stock is an excellant design. I have one on a very light .350RM and love it.
My .458WM, .375H&H, and .338WM are all 81/2 pound rifles. However, due to stock design and fit recoil is not a factor. I can and do shoot them from the bench quite often experimenting with various loads and just playing with accuracy.
The velocity of recoil is one of the difference between 378 and the 458s' felt recoil. The 378 delivers its' recoil energy to the shoulder in a must shorter time span.
Those of us here that have used the Marlin lever gun with high performance ammo think it is unpleasant to shoot, due to its' light weight, small butt and stock design. However, its' handyness in the bush is a major plus. And as you know, recoil is seldom noticed when firing at game, especially dangerous game.
I agree that the old style Bell and Carlson stock is an excellant design. I have one on a very light .350RM and love it.
My .458WM, .375H&H, and .338WM are all 81/2 pound rifles. However, due to stock design and fit recoil is not a factor. I can and do shoot them from the bench quite often experimenting with various loads and just playing with accuracy.
Marshall covered the Marlin's recoil problems, but the addition of a Decelerator pad helps tremendously. Why rifle manufacturers insist on putting recoil pads hard enough to crush diamonds on heavy kickers is beyond me.
As Preacherman and Marshall said, stock design and weight play a large role in how a particular rifle recoils. The most painful kicker I've ever shot is my TC Cherokee .45 muzzleloader with 325 gr conicals off the bench. It's essentially a ballistic match for a .454 Casull, but in a 6.5 pound rifle with a narrow comb and a crescent brass buttplate. Three shots from the bench leave me with a bruised cheek and a sore shoulder.
However, I can shoot my 9.5 pound .375H&H from the bench no problem, thanks to the weight, decent stock design and my addition of a Decelerator pad.
As Preacherman and Marshall said, stock design and weight play a large role in how a particular rifle recoils. The most painful kicker I've ever shot is my TC Cherokee .45 muzzleloader with 325 gr conicals off the bench. It's essentially a ballistic match for a .454 Casull, but in a 6.5 pound rifle with a narrow comb and a crescent brass buttplate. Three shots from the bench leave me with a bruised cheek and a sore shoulder.
However, I can shoot my 9.5 pound .375H&H from the bench no problem, thanks to the weight, decent stock design and my addition of a Decelerator pad.
Maximum safe loads for MODERN GUNS ONLY!
The .45-70 was designed for black Powder, with Modern Powders and MODERN GUNS the .45-70 approaches .458 Magnum power.
The real limiter is your ability to accept the recoil.
Usually only used in Marlin 1895s and Ruger #1s, and other strong rifles in the caliber.
Level 2 stuff is ok for things like converted Siamese Mausers.
Level 1 is suitable for all guns and is simular to the origional 405 Grain bullet at 1400 FPS, or 300 grain bullet at 1700 FPS.
The Remington level 1, 405 grain load is very good for shooting pigs.
I've never shot the weatherby but I do have my co-pilot and a 458Lott. My 45/70 is 6lbs and the Lott is 8 1/4lbs. I've shot my friends winny in 458 and I wont shoot it again. damn thing hurts. I have to go with the stock design as a primary reason to control recoil with weight being a second. Someday I'll shoot a weatherby just to see what I've been missing.
snakeman458
New member
i own the 375 h&h in a sako, the 458wm in ruger#1 tropical, and 460 wthby, in a german deluxe safari wthby. and the gun that kicks the worst is my ruger. i agree with the majority that stock has a lot to do with recoil. i enjoy all, but must be in certain frame of mind to bench my ruger.
Belated thanks for the "Level 3" info (went hunting this weekend). As often happens, however, the answers raised another question. Gewehr98 stated that according to Speer the Marlin may not be suitable for the hottest loads. But I went back and checked and Garrett actually has a 540-grain load that they recommend for use only in modern Marlins:
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp
So now I'm wondering just how strong the Marlin really is. Is it (ahem...) a "Level 2" or a "Level 3" gun?
By the way, I did a little target practice with the Marlin this weekend, with Remington 405-grain loads, and I still don't think they're unusually loud or that they kick any harder than a .30-06. I think they get a bad rap on those two counts.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp
So now I'm wondering just how strong the Marlin really is. Is it (ahem...) a "Level 2" or a "Level 3" gun?
By the way, I did a little target practice with the Marlin this weekend, with Remington 405-grain loads, and I still don't think they're unusually loud or that they kick any harder than a .30-06. I think they get a bad rap on those two counts.
Random thoughts...
Once in college, I saw a Ruger #3 in .375 H&H. Yes, I said .375 H&H, not the 375 Winchester. It was bought by a Ruger collector who swore he would never shoot it
People are now admitting that new 86 Browning/Winchesters are as strong as any Marlin, I am thinking 'bout one of those in the Lightweight version. Or a .405
I am threatening to get one of those CZ's in .416 Rigby, which when handloaded to its potential can push the .416 Weatherby. Do I need one, umm, no, but...
Once in college, I saw a Ruger #3 in .375 H&H. Yes, I said .375 H&H, not the 375 Winchester. It was bought by a Ruger collector who swore he would never shoot it
People are now admitting that new 86 Browning/Winchesters are as strong as any Marlin, I am thinking 'bout one of those in the Lightweight version. Or a .405
I am threatening to get one of those CZ's in .416 Rigby, which when handloaded to its potential can push the .416 Weatherby. Do I need one, umm, no, but...
Broke a bunch of capillaries in my shoulder a while ago.
My Ruger #1S in .45-70, on top of a stout load of Reloader 7, behind a Beartooth 405gr hard-cast, gas-checked bullet. Mr. Chronograph said 2000fps. Mr. Shoulder said, "I agree with Mr. Chronograph, wholeheartedly!" Mr. Gewehr98 said, "Hello, Mr. Motrin!"
My Ruger #1S in .45-70, on top of a stout load of Reloader 7, behind a Beartooth 405gr hard-cast, gas-checked bullet. Mr. Chronograph said 2000fps. Mr. Shoulder said, "I agree with Mr. Chronograph, wholeheartedly!" Mr. Gewehr98 said, "Hello, Mr. Motrin!"
Okay - so what should _I_ get...
I've scored a sporterized Enfield (14 or 17 I dunno - the gunsmith I'm dealing with had just glanced at it, said "sporterized enfield" and filed it away...) for a decent price. Now what should I do with it? It's currently got an aftermarket barrel in .300 Winmag on it. I'm interested in rebarreling for something big and ugly. What can I do?
I've scored a sporterized Enfield (14 or 17 I dunno - the gunsmith I'm dealing with had just glanced at it, said "sporterized enfield" and filed it away...) for a decent price. Now what should I do with it? It's currently got an aftermarket barrel in .300 Winmag on it. I'm interested in rebarreling for something big and ugly. What can I do?
My Lott is built on an enfield 14. Very strong actions for the most part. Not to much of a difference cosmetically except the bolt face (the 17 was originally an '06 and the 14 was 303) Also I was told that if its a 14, the manufactures use initials and the 17 had the names spelled out. Mines says ERA and if it was a 17 it would be spelled out eddystone remington (thats what I was told atleast).
The downside to having an enfield built into a bigbore is that it can be expensive, versus a rem, win or CZ. If done right it is a hell of a platform for a bigbore.
The downside to having an enfield built into a bigbore is that it can be expensive, versus a rem, win or CZ. If done right it is a hell of a platform for a bigbore.