Headspace issue!

M

Moloch

New member
Hi!

I think I have a headspace issue with a rifle I just bought half a year ago.

Ok, I was shooting .308 factory ammo through it, a unfired case is 2.003 to 2.006'' long, a fired case was 2.015 to 2.020 long.
Isnt that a bit much of ''stretching'' for the brass?
The brass does not show any signs damage and accuracy is very good, but that cant be right!

I only fired about 200 rounds through it, I always thought only surplus rifles have issues with headspace. But my rifle is new! :mad:
 
Z

ZeroJunk

New member
I would rent go/ no go gauges and see if you are worried about it. Hard to tell from overall length. Five bucks from Elk Ridge reamer rentals. Or, just send it back to the factory and let them make the call.

Case length is supposed to be 2.015, trim to is 2.005, so could be your ammo was on the low side to start with.I doubt you have a problem.
 
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I

impalacustom

New member
You need to measure from the datum on the shoulder to the base of the cartridge and check that measurement with the SAMMI specs. That will tell if your headspace is correct or not.
 
P

Picher

New member
Absent headspace gauges or accurate measurement of cases, other signs of excessive headspace can be:

*Primers backed out or falling out on firing;
*Excessively flattened and cratered primers with ammo that shows normal pressures in other rifles;
*Misfires.

From my experience, these symptoms can be related to other problems like overloaded ammo and bad primers, but when they occur together, excessive headspace can be the problem. They happened to me long ago when several of us were loading ammo on a friend's press. The rifle was returned to the factory and a new bolt installed, but the problem persisted.

It turned out that my chamber was a bit longer then the others and I didn't cure the problem until getting my own equipment and set it for my rifle's chamber.
 
Z

ZeroJunk

New member
You need to measure from the datum
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How do you do that? I see that it is .400. Can you take a caliper at .400 on the shoulder and measure with another? Seems it would be hard to mark it accurately. Is there some tool you can buy to do this? Just curious.
 
4

44 AMP

Staff
from the sound of it, you don't have a headspace problem

All brass stretches when fired. The first time it is fired, it stretches the most. Digging out the reloading manual, we find the max length of the .308 case is 2.015". This means that cases that start out at 2.015 will chamber and work (in a correctly chambered rifle) without trouble.

Your cases coming out at 2.015-.020 is fine. Trimming before reloading to 2.010 will solve any potential problems. Measure the cases after the second firing (starting with 2.010) and you will not see them grow nearly as much as they did the first time. This is normal.

I don't see where you mentioned the type of rifle you are shooting. There is a range min/max of dimensions that fall within "correct" headspace. Military style rifles, intended for combat conditions tend to have "looser" chambers than commercial sporting or target rifles.

Nothing you have listed indicates you have an actual problem. Have your rifle checked if you want, but based on what you have reported, I'd be surprised if it was "out" of tolerance.
 
M

Moloch

New member
Well I checked the brass and the primers are bulged out, I guess it IS a headspace issue. I just checked the empty brass, the oldest dont have any signs of primer bulging, the brass from last week does have primers sticking out of the case. The Bolt also moves back and forth when locked with a fresh round in the chamber, when I bought the gun it was nice and tight. The locking lugs also show excessive wear.

The guns steel is ****, only 200 rounds through it!

I cannot recommend these rifles, the steel seems to be way to soft: http://www.marstar.ca/gf-AIA/index.shtm
 
4

44 AMP

Staff
Sorry, Moloch

Thats a lot different!

The new info about the primers bulging, and the bolt movement makes this a much different issue. Yes, it does seem to be a headspace issue, one you say developed in only 200 rnds? Amamzing. This simply should not happen with any gun, let alone a new made one.

Their ads say they go to great length to see that their guns are up to handling .308 (something not all SMLE actions are good for), have you contacted them?

This appears to be a defective gun (bad heat treat?) and they should make it right by you. 200 rnds and bulged primers? Not right! And its had all been factory ammo, right? They can't claim your "excessive" reloads "battered" their gun?

If it were me, I would say they owe you another gun, or your money back. I would not feel comfortable about a "repair" if that was offered.
Good Luck, and please, keep us in the loop about how this works out for you.

And stop shooting that thing, right now!
 
M

Moloch

New member
Hi 44AMP!

Yes its amazing how soft steel can be, and in this case it seems to be very soft! Of course I'll throw the gun back to the dealer, but I will not accept a new gun (the same model) from them, maybe the new gun will withstand 500 or 1000 rounds till headspace gets too big. I have lost confidence in this rifle, the first one had a bad stock, the barrel wall touched the end of the stock with a lot of pressure, now my second rifle from AIA and the steel seems to be way to soft. I am done with it, I wont try it a third time. :barf:

Every shot I made with this gun was factory ammunition only, I dont reload. It was Sellier & Bellot 147 grain .308 which isnt very hot loaded. This ammo works great in my other .308's.
And stop shooting that thing, right now!
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Of course! I dont want to get burning powder blown into my face when cases start to rupture.

I'll visit my dealer this week, I think the bulged primers are evidence enough to get my money back without fighting too hard for it. If I get my money back (and boy, I will) I'll buy a well-know rifle, something like a Steyr or whatever. It wasnt cheap at all, in my country it did cost 1350 bucks so i think I'll get a nice rifle for that money.
Good Luck, and please, keep us in the loop about how this works out for you.
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Will do!
 
Z

ZeroJunk

New member
Is it possible that the locking collar has moved somehow and allowed the headspace to wander? Never seen the rifle, just curious if it's possible.
 
M

Moloch

New member
Is it possible that the locking collar has moved somehow and allowed the headspace to wander?
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Took off the hand guard and checked it out, everything nice and tight. But just from looking at the bolt I can tell that the whole bolt moved backwards some tenths.:eek:
The bolt just hammers the soft steel from the receiver flat where the locking lugs sit. Additionally the locking lugs dont make full contact with the receiver thanks to sloppy craftsmanship, this accelerates the problem. The bolt has two locking lugs, but overall only the surface from one full locking lug is used, the right lugs surface is used to 2/3 and the left lug is used to 1/3 thanks to angled surfaces where the lugs sit.

Look closely to the space where the left lug sits, sloppy receiver milling, the left lug is only marginally used to hold the bolt in place. So the left lug starts to ''bend''.
lugs.jpg
 
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O

olyinaz

New member
Sorry to hear

If it's any consolation I've got a Lithgow SMLE that's built out of all new parts and it's got excessive headspace as well. Not that misery loves company but you know what I mean - my condolences. Mine is still safe to shoot but like you mention until when? A ruptured case and hot gases in the face don't appeal to me at all either and never mind reloading the stretched brass - forget it.

Would a Mauser carbine fit the bill perhaps?

At any rate, best of luck to you.

Regards,
Oly
 
M

Moloch

New member
@ olyinaz

Thanks for your kind post! (Hey I remember you, you are the guy who helped me with my thread about the locking lug issue!)
Would a Mauser carbine fit the bill perhaps?
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Haha, it would, although I think my other K98's and G98's are enough. Speaking of mausers, I am used to them so the headspace and soft metal issue is pretty much new to me - makes it even worse. Now I love the crazy strong mauser bolt design even more. I have a Gewehr 98 from 1913 and it does not have any headspace issues. They knew how to make weapons back then. :)

I think I'll get me a steyr mannlicher, not sure which model. Maybe the ''mountain'' (aka Steyr carbine, 20'' barrel) with a 10-round magazine and iron sights, should fill the hole the AIA leaves. :D

BTW, whats wrong with your enfield? Are those original parts? Why did it get so much headspace? The .303 is easy on the bolt - just curious...
 
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olyinaz

New member
I think I'll get me a steyr mannlicher, not sure which model.
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Pretty hard to go wrong with a Steyer! I'm sure you'll love it if you can find one.

I don't know if they're available where you live but Ruger makes a rifle called the Hawkeye that comes in an "Ultra Light" and "Compact" version and it's simply a lovely rifle. Mauser inspired action that I assume you'd really like. They even make it in a Manlicher-type in the "International" model. Food for thought!

Regarding my SMLE it's one of the parts rifles that were assembled from new mil-surplus some years ago and imported from Australia. It's a looker for sure being that it's all new and I'm not worried about the metallurgy (Lithgows are reportedly excellent) but the combination of parts just happened to be such that mine has borderline excessive headspace. Guys on the various milsurp forums have told me to never mind about it and just go and enjoy shooting it but it bugs me nonetheless because I prefer good workmanship. I also hate the way an Enfield's bolt closes! It gives me no feeling of confidence at all.

My ethics are such that I just can't see passing the rifle along to someone else as it is and I know that a local smith can fix it (expensive) but by that time I'll have a $600 rifle that's worth maybe $300 in America. :rolleyes:

Oh well.

Cheers,
Oly
 
4

44 AMP

Staff
Hmmmm

SMLEs are known for having rather "sloppy" chambers (to allow for wartime crud, and still work), which usually means very short brass life for the reloader, but headspace of the .303 (the rim) is something they did try to get right. The usual fix for excessive headspace is to replace the bolt head with the next size. IIRC they came in 4 sizes. Not something your common US gunsmith is likely to have lying about, but in other places? maybe.

Moloch, I understand your frustration completely. I wouldn't accept a replacement in kind either. Steyrs have a good reputation. Overpriced, to my thinking, but so much is these days.:(

I recently got one of the Ishapore .308s, have not shot it yet. Was told that it is one of the guns purpose made for the .308, not a reworked .303 like some of them are. Can't say, but I will keep a close eye on it when I get it shooting. I have to clean off a lot of black paint a previous owner "prettyed it up" with. Did finally manage to get the magazine out. What some people do! Sheesh! (and no, its not the proper paint job, the guy I got it from saw the guy do it, so no collector value there)
 
M

Moloch

New member
I don't know if they're available where you live but Ruger makes a rifle called the Hawkeye that comes in an "Ultra Light" and "Compact" version and it's simply a lovely rifle
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I just visited the Ruger site and wow!, what a amazing little rifle! It will be the replacement of my ''Soft steel Enfield''!
K98-Style bolt, only 35'' (6'' longer than the barrel of my Gewehr 98!) long, no need for a Steyr if you can have something like the M77 compact, it would serve me well as a do-it-all rifle! Thanks so much for mentioning it! :)
Now I just need a source, long guns from Ruger are not widely known over the big lake.

I've heard about the different bolt head sizes for the SMLE, the right one should deal with the headspace issue!
Was told that it is one of the guns purpose made for the .308
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Didnt know that there were purpose-built .308 SMLE's, does the bolt or the receiver differ in any way compared to the .303 parts?:confused:
 
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