HCI's idea of a safe home

[Q]

I like to check and see what lies the competition tries to spread around, so I was poking around HCI's site the other day and came across one of their "Is Your Family Safe?" quizzes. Okay. I'm game. I used the home I grew up in as a model and took the test...

My parents really failed miserably...

It's a wonder my brother and I are still alive! It's a wonder anyone in my hometown is alive!

Here are some of the questions they ask:

Is there a gun in your home?

"A" gun? more like five guns... and two bows. Three of the guns and one of the bows were Mom's.

Do children know where the guns are?

Yeah... pretty hard to miss. They were in a built-in hutch right by the TV.

Is the ammunition stored separately and locked?

Not exactly, unless you count the built-in drawer right below the hutch as "separate", and no, it wasn't locked, either.

Are your guns locked in either a safe or with an approved trigger lock?

There wasn't even a glass covering on the hutch, oh, my!

Does your family ever have arguments?

Oh, heck. German-Italian-French mixes never argue. <g>

Are your children ever home by themselves?

My parents did have a life, ya know.

Are you certain you could tell the difference between a family member and an intruder?

What kind of question is this? People who own guns shoot anything that moves in the dark? Hey, HCI, ever hear of being "certain of your target and beyond"?

Could there be guns in the homes where your children play?

In fact, I'd be surprised if one of my friends' families didn't have a gun in the house. I grew up in a hunting/fishing community in northern Minnesota. The paper factory nearly shuts down every year with the deer hunting opener!

----------

HCI painted a picture for me that gun owners are irresponsible maniacs who are willing to kill family members over any little disagreement or accidentally kill their families when they hear something go bump in the night.

Ridiculous.

The same rules we had for firearms applied to anything else that might be dangerous in the home, like power tools: You don't dare touch anything Mom and Dad said is dangerous unless they have taught you how to use it first... and you don't use it unsupervised until they have seen you act responsibly.

My brother and I knew that our parents had enough respect for us that they could entrust us with certain responsibilities. We had enough respect for our parents to obey them and to know that what they said was best for us.

But this is what really irks me: Isn't this notion of hiding things from kids even more dangerous? Isn't that only going to make a child even more curious (the forbidden fruit syndrome)? Isn't it safer for everyone around when parents take the time to go through some very basic training?

I see kids at the range with their moms and dads all the time and it's very encouraging. I'm a lot less afraid that those kids are going to hurt themselves than some other kid who hasn't ever seen a gun and knows nothing about gun safety.

But then, I've got a 10-year-old cousin who made state shooting champion last year. HCI must think I'm nuts, but instead of being scared of him, I'm proud!

I'm more afraid of ignorance of guns than I am of guns themselves!

Any thoughts? What was it like for other members of this forum growing up?

=Q=

------------------
"Oh, grow up, 007."


[This message has been edited by Q (edited February 16, 1999).]

 

[Bill Mitchell]

>>But this is what really irks me: Isn't this notion of hiding things from kids even more dangerous? Isn't that only going to make child even more curious (the forbidden fruit syndrome)? Isn't it safer for everyone around when parents take the time to go through some very basic training?<<

Exactly! Telling a kid that he shouldn't touch something or do something makes them wonder why they shouldn't. And,when they get the chance,they touch or do it just to see what happens. When I was a kid,my best friend ate a cigarette for the specific reason that his mom told him not to,but not why not to. Saying,"Because I said so" doesn't cut it anymore. Education is the key. I learned to shoot in Alaska,spending the summer with my aunt and uncle. My uncle,an ex-marine,took me to the range and spent two days teaching me how to load,aim,shoot,and unload my gun (a Marlin .22 rifle). He then taught what to aim and shoot at,and what not to aim and shoot at. When I showed that I was competent in all those things,then I could take my rifle and go shoot tin cans out on the tundra. I knew to have a backstop,and to not be shooting towards the road. He never checked my rifle when I would return,because he trusted his judgement,and me.

I'm a cowboy action shooter. I shoot with kids every month at CAS shoots. Our club champion last year was a 17 year old. Kids aren't stupid,just curious. If we teach them about the things they are curious about,then they are better off,and we can trust them to do the right thing,most of the time.

 

[boing]

HCI doesn't want you to hide your guns. They want you to give up your guns. The only way to protect children is to eliminate everything with which a child could hurt himself.
Like roads.
And gravity.

-boing

 

[Jim V]

Hell, like life.

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum

 

[KAM_Indianapolis]

I grew up in CT, in a very anti-gun family. Only recently have I learned that my grand-father committed suicide by blowing his brains out with a revolver.

Somewhere along the line, my memory sucks, I was imprinted with the basic's. Never assume a gun is un-loaded, never point a gun at anyone unless you mean to shoot them, never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot, and above all, DONT PLAY WITH GUNS. I also remember the slogans "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" and "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." I wish, I could remember where I picked up this knowledge so I could thank whoever passed it on to me.

My interest in guns began in high school when I got a job at the Remington Gun Club in Stratford. Seeing some of those people shooting trap and skeet was really remarkable. Even there the basics did me well, especially when a shooter would ask me to hold their shotgun. And I also saw plenty of stupidity, like the time during winter when some idiot put his finger, with glove on, and discharged his shotgun about a foot from my feet.

After purchasing my house I made another purcahse, a used Mossberg 500. I've shot it a few times and never had one accident. Recently I purchased a handgun. I always pay attention to the rules, and always triple check things while shooting, cleaning or putting the gun away. I'm still learning the finer points of shooting, like aiming, but I'm always carefull with my weapon.

You have to respect something before you understand it. Once you fear something it will control you. I think this is one of the main problems with the anti-gun crowd. They fear guns, not the predatory criminals who use them. Education is the only way to change that.

Peace...
Keith

***
I was trying to remember what set this off in my memory, in relation to the topic at hand. This past weekend I went shooting at the local range. A young kid and his grandfather came in right after me. The boy had a nice Marlin .22 While on the range I could hear the grandfather going over basically the same rules as I had remembered.

At the time I thought, there really is hope if this is happening at every range in America. So, I would take a kid you know to the range and teach them to shoot.

[This message has been edited by KAM_Indianapolis (edited February 16, 1999).]

 

[Rich Lucibella]

Q-
This is one of the funnier posts I've seen in a while....even better that it's right on target. Thank you and welcome to TFL.

Stick around. (Adopting my best Billy Bob Thornton voice): "I like the way you talk".
Rich

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Q, thanks for the espionage. Occasionally I take a look at HCI, but it is rather like listening to Clinton speak - I can only handle it so long before my BS meter goes off, and I have to return to reality.

I didn't grow up in an anti-gun home, and my Dad had a 1911 .45 ACP around somewhere. He's still alive, and I love him, but unfortunately he never taught me much about guns. That was left to a roommate in college - a former Army Captain, and a helicoptor pilot from 'Nam. Anyway, I came to know guns as precise, unforgiving, but invaluable, practical tools. And, my Dad did teach me to use the right tool for the job.

Regarding HCI's little quiz, I find a very consistent theme among liberals. Most of them tend to be very touchy-feely, and almost mothering in their concern for their fellow man. That is fine and dandy, except that they are so tuned in to the foibles of man that they want all of us to be treated as children. Since some people are unable or unwilling to take responsibility for themselves, are 'unable' to work hard, and 'cannot' better themselves, then we need to 'level the playing field' for everyone. We must take care of everyone. And, since we will all be treated as children, we can't be allowed to play with dangerous things like guns, fast cars, cigarettes and so on. The State will comfort and nurture us.

There do seem to be two classes of personality - those who wish to take care of others and be taken care of, and those who wish to be allowed the freedom to do their best. Perhaps this is why Billy Jeff is always doing things 'for the children'. He means all of us.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 18, 1999).]

 

[KAM_Indianapolis]

I seem to remember reading somewhere, and mind you I am paraphrasing

"those who wish to suckle at the state teat, give up their liberty to do so."

I'm all for a safer world, but one in which life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are 1st on the list of values.

Peace...
Keith

 

[chink]

Liberty is an expensive thing. It is so valuable, the people, our governments (state, local, and federal), have been trying to take it way from us for years. Like all good things in life, we have to work as a team to keep. But we all know that and why we are here

 

[Morgan]

KAM - the best quote is:

If ye love wealth greather than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your council, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.

-Samuel Adams

 

[Byron Quick]

You know, I was thinking of that quote the other day while visiting the cemetery. Sitting under a huge pine by my father's grave. With the graves of cousins dead in Vietnam, Korea, and World War II close by. My several times great grandfather, a veteran of the Revolution a few rows over. Peaceful.

 

[Michael Marks]

It is important to recognize that HCIs entire platform is built on a premise of fear. The LESS you know, the more likely you are to simply absorb baseless rhetoric as fact. Consider this:

It is a readily acknowledged FACT that any type of safety education will very likely improve safety knowledge, and DECREASE accidents and injury. This is why we have Drivers Ed, Sex Ed, etc. If so, and HCI really wants to reduce handgun-related injuries, why doesn't HCI sponsor a series of firearm safety programs?

The simple answer is that they would rather see ongoing accidents if that is the price to fuel their cause. As a shooter, I would be willing to support a massive gun safety program and I'd be thrilled if we could educate everyone on safe gun handling and storage. HCI has built such a myopic position that they seem willing to accept any harm to innocent citizens (such as disarming the 2.5million every year who use a firearm to ward off a violent criminal attack, etc), as long as this "gets rid of guns".

The pathetic part of their position is - guns will NEVER go away. Legislation is INCAPABLE of making something vanish. Nothing has been more heavily outlawed than drugs like cocaine or heroin. No "abolition" has seen more of the taxpayers money spent on enforcement. Let me ask each of you... is YOUR home town free of drugs? Has utter abolition for at least 30 years and megabucks of enforcement reduced the availability of drugs even one iota? Nope.

Technology cannot be "un-invented". If revolutionary-war blacksmiths with coal forges could make firearms, don't you think that any average Joe in his basement with a million machine and a drill press would have trouble making a gun? Do you think that guns would be harder to ship across our borders than the hundreds of kilos of cocaine, etc that walk in here daily...?

We cannot magically change reality; not thru legislation or wishing on a star. We CAN change attitudes and education. THAT can save lives TODAY. HCI needs to take their eyes of the dreamworld of "wouldn't it be nice if..." and simply look at the reality of implementation. Support of HCI means support of higher taxes on a quest that history has shown to be utterly without hope. Lets not waste our resources, lets use them wisely. Inform and educate and allow a knowledgable and enlightened society to control its own safety and destiny.
Mike

 

[Morgan]

Michael - I've often suspected that HCI and other "save the children!" types actually lick their chops and rub their hands with glee when they hear about a tragic accident like the Dix incident (Beretta sued for a kid shooting another kid with an "empty" gun - dropped the mag but didn't clear the chamber) as they now have more ammo, a fresh case to preach about, etc.

I honestly think they don't give a crap about the lives involved, but think "I can use this to impose my will on others" and show how they're better than anyone else. It truly sickens me. They should be teaching safety, as you say.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Michael, I would agree that 'abolition' hasn't done much to reduce drug use, but it has given us a very comprehensive selection of gun laws.

Liberals are liberals because they do not and cannot accept reality. They combine the wish, desire and good faith attempts to improve the world (laudable) with a suspension of reality, and so carry their philosophy to the point that they believe man's basic nature can be overcome. History means nothing to them, except to provide examples of how they don't like the world as it exists.

I don't think you can really change the mind of a true liberal - not enough there to work with. Intellectual? Yes, quite often. But, lacking in the 'practical / reality cortex' - too many cells devoted to the 'theoretical cortex'. It seems the best approach is to clearly point out their lack of credible sources for statistics (like HCI), the questionable nature of their statistics, their failure to recognize other statistics that disprove their case (like NRA summaries of citizen defensive use of guns), and the inherent elitism of telling you and I that we cannot be trusted with guns to protect ourselves and our families.

I need to get much better at this myself. Called a local liberal talk show host last night - he was a fairly easy target to debate, but more because he was new than because I was prepared. Countered him well I believe, but I need to get stat's, sources and solid arguments that effectively counter all of the garbage dispensed by folks like HCI.

IMHO, people who believe in the RKBA must become excellent debaters now - as I see it, we owe that to our ancestors and our descendants.

 

[thaddeus]

Like a female CCW teacher I had said:

"When I was growing up, guns were part of the household...just another tool. We had pots in the kitchen, a dog on the porch and guns in the closet, it was just another household item".

I probably didn't say it as well as she, but her point was, she was taught how to be safe with all the tools in the house from the boiling water and kitchen knives to the guns, and guns were just no big deal.

My dad used to let me "play" with his 1911 whenever I wanted as long as he was around. He DRILLED into me to ALWAYS, %100, check the chamber every time the gun was handed to me or picked up. It was always impressive to gun store owners when I went in as as 8 year old and asked to see a gun, and then after they handed it to me, I double checked the chamber etc and never pointed it anywhere but up. One advantage of drilling with my dad's 1911 is that I subconsciously flick the safety on whenever I am not pointing down range and vice versa. Education works to teach safety as well as dispell mystery and I think that it should be part of school curriculum.

I also believe that Hollywood has to take personaly responsibilty for the deaths of many by handguns. Hollywood not only shows violence as the solution to all problems, but they show horrific gun handling techniques to the viewers. Like it or not, T.V. is our educator. My wife is a education major and she learned that kids today spend more time watching television than they do in school by the time they graduate high school (I belive it is about 15,800 hours if I recall). Hollywood should take an active resposibility to, every time a gun his shown, to purposely take 5 seconds to show the person holding it display proper gun handling. I have even seen actors clear a semi-auto by dropping the mag alone. Where do we think people are leaning their gun handling techniques if they aren't taking gun classes? Probably television.



I agree with everything above as well. "Liberals" (I hate to generalize, but...) typically just don't accept reality and refuse to look to history or factual examples. They usually turn coat after they get viciously attacked though, and reality hits home to them. I have a funny story about a friend who exclaimed to me that all handguns should be banned! That was until several months later when we were surrounded by 12 gangsters and he grabbed MY gun from under the seat to protect us (he actually was a bit premature, and I had not gone for the gun yet because there was no direct threat to our lives at that instant). Anyway, since then, he has always felt that maybe guns are okay and he started going shooting with me. I have lost contact with him since, but I bet he owns a handgun. Reality hit home when his safe little bubble was burst.

Thanks for listening.

thaddeus

Ps- I still choose to keep a trigger safety on my handguns when kids are around and the key around my neck.