Hatfields and McCoys, cap and ball,

[awaveritt]

Ok, just finished watching Hatfields and McCoys miniseries last night. Enjoyed all the cap n ball revolvers and early Henrys and Winchesters and Sharps. But in part 3, set in the late 1880's/early 1890's, some of the characters had switched to their Colt SAA's but a number of them were still totin' their venerable cap n balls, 1860/62 Army/Navy and Remingtons and such.

My question to you is, from a historic standpoint, how late in the century do you think the cap n balls became relics in the minds of the gun-totin' citizenry? Would they have still been in common use?

Subjective question, I know, but anyone have a sense of this?

 

[jimbob86]

Try to remember that guns are expensive tools, and in hard times, most folk have to make hard decisions about what to spend their money on- a new gun is very nice to have, but would get much less use than a new horse or plow.

The days of many people having a large collection of guns are relatively new- while most households may of had a gun or two, certainly not a a gun collection ....... "Make do, or do without...."

 

[zincwarrior]

Well, in addition to the costs to fit out all the actors over time, in a more historical basis also remember we're talking a lot of poor people too. They may have wanted the latest and greatest toy but they were stuck with last year's budget.

Alternatively a lot of those cap n ball pistols were bored out to accept cartridges later. Upgrade on the cheap.

 

[darkroommike]

I am a Hatfield (mother's side) it's been said already, these were dirt poor people and hard cash money was hard to find, I am amazed by the number of revolvers my kin possessed, noting that, rifles are utilitarian but pistols are made only for killing.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Youve got to remember that in many areas of Appalachia and the Ozarks muzzleloading rifles were still in common usage well after world war two.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

[QUOTE My question to you is, from a historic standpoint, how late in the century do you think the cap n balls became relics in the minds of the gun-totin' citizenry? Would they have still been in common use? ][/QUOTE]

I would think many cap & ball pistols from that era were kept until they just became unrepairable. To own a SAA Colt or a converted Remington 1858 as you may know plane and simple was beyond the reach of many. So folks made due with what they had. Depending on usage. I'm sure many cap & ball revolvers made it to the turn of the 20th century on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line.

 

[BlueTrain]

I'm from southern West Virginia but that particular feud took place two counties to the west from where I grew up. That was also the place where the snake handler ran out of luck (the snake lacked faith) just the other day.

I was going to say as late as WWI. I think later than WWII is a little too late. Such things were collector's items by then. Remember also, the union troubles in southern West Virginia between the wars that resulted in regular pitched battles between miners and first the "detectives" and later the state militia. They weren't using muzzleloaders then. The militia used machine guns against the miners. However, muzzleloading rifles did hang on.

I don't watch television but according to a review in the paper, the series was filmed in Rumania, of all places.

 

[Hawg]

They talked about going to great lengths to ensure historical accuracy but they had brass framed Remington's, a short barreled 1860 and even a short barreled 51 Navy brass frame in 44 with a cartridge cylinder.

 

[Mike Irwin]

No, I don't think it is too late, Blue.

Remember, a lot of these areas never really came out of the Great Depression until WELL after World War II, right into the 1960s when Lyndon Johnson started extending the War on Poverty into the Appalachian Aid Corporation, or whatever it was called.

There are LOTS of things that are still in common use that are collector's items, but which are in use because they're useful, they work, and they're a lot less expensive than the modern replacement.

As someone mentioned, first and foremost, these guns were viewed as every day working tools. Often such items don't become "family heirlooms" or legacies until such time as the owner has become affluent enough to buy a replacement.

Up until that point, that family heirloom is a hunting rifle.

 

[zincwarrior]

Indeed. My inlaws have an early 1900s shotgun thats now a "family heirloom" because the owner died and the inlaw is himself in his 80s. But its just "his shotgun."

 

[starbuck125]

i live in kentucky, my grandpaw,(mothers side) born in 1903, never owned a car in all of his 98 yrs. on this earth. my mother got a car in 1963, same year they added the indoor plumbing. before that was horse an wageon, an outhouses.my dads father was killed in 1936 by a feller that insulted a woman. that feller disappeared a few days later...nobody ever seen him again, older family members don't talk about it much...
i still have his 16 gauge double barrel king nitro shotgun though, never shot it , just keep it clean, an stored.

 

[zincwarrior]

Looks like godawful pretty country.

 

[OutlawJoseyWales]

Love the series, didn't even bother me about the brass frame '58. I guess the prop guys liked the shiny look of it.

Those of us from the South, know that the depression lasted into the 1960's for the rural south. Granddaddy and Grandmama got a bathroom in the house in the early 60's, my Dad put it in for them. That was the rural north Florida area too. So, the folks in the mountains were much more secluded and also economically deprived, it might have been the 70's till the Depression ended there, if no still going.

That being said, one of my board members was raised in West Virginia however, they lived in a housing project that Elinor Roosevelt built out up there. His Mom would ride around in the car with her.
He had indoor everything, even central heat, much like a modern house.
While the neighbors, who didn't get to move to the housing project lived in adject poverty in houses that looked like the TV series.
Go figure.

 

[buckhorn]

Hatfields and McCoys

I think it did a pretty good job of portraying weapons of the time. I read somewhere that Kevin Costner insists on firearm accuracy in his movies. Remember "dances with wolves" I don't remember any inconsistenties in the firearms in that movie. But I did notice in "Hatfields" a guy walking around with a brass framed Remington '58. Never made back then. Wild Bill was know to carry his "51's for several years after cartridge revovlers became available. It's like some one mentioned, back then Guns were tools and if it worked you kept using it. Plus blackpowder was probably more available than cartridges, and they made their own bullets. Good show, brass framed revolvers regardless.

 

[MJN77]

rifles are utilitarian but pistols are made only for killing.

What exactly do you think a rifle does?

 

[OutlawJoseyWales]

Speaking of Costner and firearms, I read recently he was upset back in 2003that the movie editors (or whomever) had made it look like he was firing a 12 shooter in the movie Open Range. They edited out the scene where he drew the 2nd revolver in the opening of the huge final gunfight. For most folks, they don't know nor CARE that he was firing so many times, Hollywood's been doing it forever. But he knew and supposidly commented on it.
Love that movie too.

Movies are supposed to suspend you in time, which is what makes them entertainment. For us, seeing a brass '58 and some of the other oddities snaps us out of the "moment" like a regular person seeing a car sitting on the side of the road in this movie. We notice things like that, because it's our little world.

My Father-in-Law retired a Captain of the Florida Highway Patrol, he hated any kind of TV cop show, simply wouldn't watch them. That was his world, and he just couldn't enjoy them. Didn't bother us though. We loved Starsky and Hutch, Hawaii 5-0, Ironsides, and Dragnet. Whoo Hoo.

 

[Hawg]

Remember "dances with wolves" I don't remember any inconsistenties in the firearms in that movie.

Been awhile since I've seen it and all I really remember is him walking around during the whole movie and firing an empty Henry and at ranges impossible for a Henry.

 

[sltm1]

Hawg, besides the Remie brasser conversion.....did you notice a pair of Austrailian saddles? The gunhand rode one (when he shot "skunkhead")and so did the blonde McCoy when she got kicked out of the Hatfields place. Good job overall....but just sayin'....

By the way, if you've ever watched the movie, "Sargent York", he was still using a muzzle loader at the begining of WW1 and he was from Appalachia.

 

[Hawg]

No I didn't notice the saddles. I did watch it on a laptop tho if that will work for an excuse. I'm really not that up on Aussie saddles other than I know they have really wide fenders and smaller stirrups than western saddles.

Hawg, besides the Remie brasser conversion..

Saw this.

And this, a short barreled brass 51 Navy conversion in .44

This isn't a video link just a paused screen shot.

 

[Strafer Gott]

The Brass was so shiny, it really did glare, especially cause our eyes are naturally drawn to the piece. I had a Brass Navy back in '73. Never shined like that. Maybe plating. Anyway it did stink the scene up a bit. Authenticity? Let me say that they were not dirty enough by half!

I also had a Hopkins and Allen underhammer in .36 cal as well. As a young man, I saw lots of black powder rifles at give away prices. Of course I was intrigued. I could afford that rifle. Believe it or not, Holy Black could be bought at the LGS and not so LGS. Shot as well, and even a mold for the pistol
at the LGS. So I am of the opinion, maybe it didn't completely vanish in the
Endless mountains part of Appalachia.