Has the Marine Corps lost its mind!!!!????

[Commander47]

There is a topic on the list about polymer vs metal mags that has gotten me thinking.....a scary thing I might add.

Why would the Marines try to adopt the M27 as a replacement for M4 and M249?

In this instance, I am glad Congress put a stop to it for now. USMC ordered 11,000 of the FN rifles. But as of now, no more are to be ordered.

The Marines wanted a rifle to act like SAW, but not be so obvious. First of all, there is absolutely NO CORRELATION between the SAW and the m27. None, zero. Makes no sense.

The SAW can fire 250 rounds of belted ammo and has a changeable barrel. The M27 uses a 30 round magazine and only sustain full auto fire for slightly longer than the M4.

The M27 was found to be more accurate out to 600 yards. Giving it an advantage over the SAW of an extra 100 yards.

Force Recon and other Marine elite units have refused the M27. It is two pounds heavier than the M4, not more effective than the SAW, and not compatible with any other US weapon system.

The M27uses FN proprietary STANAG mags. The Marines want to adopt polymer mags to go with their new rifle.

Interestingly enough? but there's more. The Marines want to adopt a heavier bipod version that uses Magpul 50 round drum magazines. I guess the Marines never heard of the RPK. The heavier version of the AK 47.

To make it more unreal, the Marines want to go with an M38 as well. The M38 is a scope mounted M27. A not quite a sniper but not quite an infantry weapon.

Wow, I'm not against upgrading our infantry weapons system....but now I understand why the Marines normally get Army leftovers. With thought processes like this going on, they need to let the Army decide.

 

[Destructo6]

Wasn't the concept for the M27 a shoulder weapon that was lighter and more maneuverable than a M249, yet could dump more full auto before failing than an M4?

Are you saying that the concept is not valid or that the M27 doesn't meet that conceptual need? Both?

 

[Cyanide971]

A few corrections to some of what was said in the OP.

1. The M27 is made exclusively by HK and is based off of the Hk416.

2. It feeds from 30 rd STANAG mags, not a proprietary design. There were initial issues with early generation PMAGs due the followers and the M855A1 EPR, which have long since been corrected.

3. True, MARSOC prefers the M4 but not because the M27 is a piece of junk. On the contrary, it’s more because of their ability to piece together the M4 as necessary for specific missions, since they’re using the SOCOM M4 upper assembly (incompatible with the M27 lower). Have to remember that Raiders are going to be doing a much different mission set than regular grunts, just as the Rangers versus their counterparts in a regular line unit over in the Army.

5. Also, there’s plenty of testimony that the grunts using it enjoy it. Namely, first hand word from one of my best friend’s sons who, like his father and myself were back in the late 80’s to mid 90’s, is a current Marine grunt and was deployed over in Afghanistan, able to actually employ the weapon. He and others who used it have nothing but love for the rifle.

6. Even if you lose the M249 SAW completely, unless things have changed in the T/O, you still have a pair of M240’s attached per rifle squad (six per platoon) for heavy volume suppressive fire.

Here’s a few recent articles from within the last year. The first one is by far the most relevant, as it’s by a retired CWO-5 “Gunner”.

https://news.yahoo.com/8-reasons-marine-corps-cant-173000118.html

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marines-corps-not-replacing-m27-next-generation-squad-weapon/

https://www.military.com/daily-news...-m27s-armys-next-generation-squad-weapon.html

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne...t-or-working-with-them-youre-not-getting-one/

 

[TX Nimrod]

The M27 was combat tested starting in 2011. Initial reports were positive once the Marines finished familiarization. A change in fire suppression theory includes better accuracy putting fewer, aimed rounds on target verses the M249’s volume of spray fire and “machine gun sound”. It also runs cooler with easier maintenance. Budget constraints were doubtless a consideration as well.

I haven’t handled an M27 nor its ancestor the HK416, so I have no personal input.


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[Shadow9mm]

Doing trials, and adopting are 2 different things. If it is build to fit the criteria, there is no harm in trying. Let the best weapon win and get it in our troops hands.

 

[DMK]

It sounds to me like the Marines actually wanted the 5.56 version of what the Army wanted the M-14 to be back in the 50's.

IE. One weapon that can fill the role of a Service Rifle, SAW, or DMR. Jack of all trades, exceptional at none.

 

[Ignition Override]

I only heard -- today -- about this rifle.

A very young buddy with Air Force Intell. (based in GA) told me about the gun.

Maybe it has too many roles to fulfill (--I have no idea--), but at least it's an HK product.

 

[simonrichter]

what I was wondering - the M27 is to replace the M4 and to some extent the M249 at least for frontline units. That replacement is still ongoing as by the end of 2020. Thus, the M27 will be fielded on a full scale more or less the same time the NGSW program will draw to a close and most likely replace the 5.56 in the armed forces in general... So why not stick with the M4 a bit longer andcwait for the new wonder 6.8?

(and yes, I'm well aware that not all things must necessarily make sense, especially in the Armed Forces, I'm Austrian .)

 

[5whiskey]

6. Even if you lose the M249 SAW completely, unless things have changed in the T/O, you still have a pair of M240’s attached per rifle squad (six per platoon) for heavy volume suppressive fire.

Back in ‘07 there were only 2 M240s per platoon, 6 total in a line company. Wait maybe 7 I think the 1stSgts vehicle is assigned one. At any rate, 2 per line platoon. Actually this is as recent as 2017 when my son was in and a machine gun section leader.

To the OP, this trial isn’t nearly as controversial as you make it seem. First off, an m249 is not even close to being as reliable and durable as an m240. Second, the weight trade off between the m249 and m27 favors the m27 imo. Third, I would agree that m27s aren’t as capable at sustained FA fire. For this reason I would like to see the USMC either retain it or expand the m240 capability. The Marines Jane an entirely different mission than the army, and hence leaving weapon systems decisions for the Marine Corps to the army would be silly. The army barely deploys with less than a brigade, the Corps rarely deploys with more than a battalion. They use fewer troops, covering greater areas, and typically expect to hold just long enough for the army broadsword to mobilize. Marines don’t have whole divisions that push infantry out in Bradley’s, complete with any fire support other than CAS that could possibly be needed on the ground, like the army does. They often go to battle with a weapon and a rucksack, walking everywhere and rarely seeing resupply until the company gunny guides in the log train. A broke m249 that weighs 17lbs empty, but must be accounted for, is more of a burden than a blessing.

I’ve carried crew served weapons up mountains in Afghanistan. I say the saw should be done away with entirely, extra m240s added to the T/O, and some m27s spread around between squads.

 

[TX Nimrod]

Doing trials, and adopting are 2 different things...

The point being that the weapon was actually used in combat for years before being adopted. Post #3 indicates that it was liked by those who had to use it in anger; the OP’s concerns seem......misplaced.



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[ballisticxlr]

"proprietary STANAG mags" ? You mean standard AR mags that are cross compatible with nearly every NATO primary assault rifle and every AR-15 in the whole world, that proprietary mag?

 

[44 AMP]

I don't see comparing a belt fed .30 GPMG (M240) to a box fed .22 LMG in terms of durability and sustained volume of fire to be a fair thing.

Look at the mechanism of an M240 (MAG 58) and you can see its ancestor is the Maxim gun. Much modified, to be sure, but it's there in the action to be seen.

This allows it to run very well, and makes it a fitting replacement for the Browning .30 MGs, something the M60 (and M73, M73A1 and M219) absolutely were NOT.