Has anyone put one of these together

Hawg

New member
Do yourself a favor and pay the extra to get one completed. Round balls need a slow twist rate like 1:60 to around 1:73. Conical bullets need a faster rate around 1:32. 1:48 is a medium that does well with both but isn't great with either one. Some guns shoot one or the other really well but not worth squat with the other. Some guns shoot about the same with either.
 

Oliver Sudden

New member
That kit is easy to build a basic rifle. They shoot good if you do a bit of refining and understand what can be a issue that needed some dealt with. I've done a couple and if some excess wood is removed in the right spots and you prepare the metal correcting some shapes you can have a presentable gun. There are easier kits out there.
 

FrontierGander

New member
This is the one you REALLY want, not that kentucky.
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifl...tions-st-louis-hawken-rifle-kit-krc52408.html

As for the 1:48 twist, my Hawken is the kit i posted above and that sob shoots amazing at 100 yards with patched round balls.

This holy myth about the 1:48 twist is just so stupid these days it actually gives me heart burn. Original Hawken rifles had a 1:48 twist with deeper rifling of course, and those rifles i've read, used to be shot with 170+ grains of powder.

My hunting load is 70gr 3f goex but she still does awesome with 90gr Pyrodex P and a .020" patch and .490" round ball.

FIRST time at 100 yards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QifxoqjO-tw
 
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maillemaker

New member
I've never built a kit, but gifted two to my father who did. Basically, unless you are looking to learn and enjoy the building process, there is little benefit cost-wise to doing so. You aren't going to save much money building a kit.

But, once you build it, they shoot as well as anything, assuming you built it well.

Twist rate is the rate of twist of the rifling. A 1:1" twist would mean that you made one complete twist in 1 inch. Obviously that is a very tight (fast) twist. The longer you have to go to complete the twist, the looser (slower) the twist is. For example, let's say it took one mile to complete one twist.

There is an equation, called the Greenhill Equation, that attempts to explain the relationship between projectile parameters and twist rate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_George_Greenhill

This was developed in the late 1800s. There have been more modern adaptations.

But the long and short of it is that for any given bore diameter (say, .577 caliber), and all else being equal (hollow cavity, conical nose), the faster the twist, the longer (heavier) the bullet will need to be in order to stabilize properly.

I disagree with Hawg's assessment of conical bullets and their twist needs.

The quintessential Pattern 1853 Enfield musket had a 1:78 twist and fired a conical "expanding ball" bullet of about 530 grains. Likewise, the Springfield 1861 musket had a 1:78 twist and also used a conical expanding ball.

Musketoons like the Pattern 1858 Enfield had a 1:48 twist and tend to do well with heavier bullets to stabilize well but also historically shot conical expanding balls.

Of course for rifles like the "Kentucky" rifle you linked to was not a military rifle and was probably usually shot with patched round ball.

Steve
 

Hawg

New member
I disagree with Hawg's assessment of conical bullets and their twist needs.

The quintessential Pattern 1853 Enfield musket had a 1:78 twist and fired a conical "expanding ball" bullet of about 530 grains. Likewise, the Springfield 1861 musket had a 1:78 twist and also used a conical expanding ball.

Musketoons like the Pattern 1858 Enfield had a 1:48 twist and tend to do well with heavier bullets to stabilize well but also historically shot conical expanding balls.

Expanding balls (minies) shoot like round balls because all the weight is up front. Put a solid conical in a 1:78 twist and it's tumble city.
 

Hawg

New member
This holy myth about the 1:48 twist is just so stupid these days it actually gives me heart burn. Original Hawken rifles had a 1:48 twist with deeper rifling of course, and those rifles i've read, used to be shot with 170+ grains of powder.

I've got a couple of books on Hawken rifles and I don't remember any powder charges being that high. They could certainly handle it with a breech that was 1 1/4 inches across the flats and tapering down to an inch at the muzzle. They could also benefit from a heavier than normal powder charge with barrels ranging from 33-40 inches long. Also Hawken rifles were designed for long heavy conicals. You got a good one and I do believe I said some would shoot very well with them. I've had a few 1:48 rifles that wouldn't shoot round balls well at all. A slower twist shoots them very well indeed.
 

Model12Win

Moderator
What? Weren't Hawkens made for round ball? I've read books on Hawkens an other plains rifles, and don't recall conicals being as popular as roundball.
 

Model12Win

Moderator
What's the purpose of double triggers on a ML?
You first pull the rear one, and that "sets" the front trigger. It basically turns the front trigger into a "hair trigger" with a very light pull, designed to improve accuracy.

Usually you can just pull the front trigger to fire the gun without setting it with the rear trigger, but the pull will be heavier and this can throw your shot off. With a muzzleloader, you want to put that one shot where it counts and for target work or hunting, a set trigger can be a good thing.
 

FrankenMauser

New member
In my experience, Traditions kits are a collection of parts that they cast off from their production line, because they were out of spec for production rifles.

Not a fun experience. I wouldn't do it.

...Unless you want to do a substantial amount of fitting, tweaking, adjusting, and fine-tuning.

Not too far down the list of topics in the forum here, there's a thread about a kit that I bought. It was a different kit. But a short summary is that half of the parts were crap, most things didn't fit worth a crap (even beyond "kit" quality), and I had to completely re-engineer the trigger group, just to make it usable (and functional).
Very much unhappiness.
 

Texas Reb

New member
I really appreciate all you guy's opinions and knowledge. You've talked me out of this for now. I'm leaning towards a Lyman. I won't be letting price guide me this time. Well, I mean it will cause I'm limited, but I will try and go middle of the road.

I learned a lot from everyone and know a bit more about what I'm looking for now.
 

Gbro

New member
What's the purpose of double triggers on a ML?

The Set(rear)trigger is by the manufacture for target shooting.
That is a Lawyer-ed thing in that if one uses a set trigger in hunting the rifle trigger is so light that one may not feel the trigger due to the Adrenaline.
I do set my trigger while hunting and i set before i cock the hammer so that every time i cock the rifle the trigger is set.

What the set trigger is is a "Power Flick" device that assists in the triggering of the gun.
 
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