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Hardcast for military?
- Thread starter imp
- Start date
357 Python
New member
I believe Remington puts out a non-toxic lead free round that is flat nosed FMJ. I have used it on the range at out academy and it fucntioned in my Beretta just fine.
troy_mclure
New member
the biggest reason it wouldnt work is the "lead scare", the army is even going to non lead small arms rounds.
chris in va
New member
I'm assuming by 'hardcast' you mean lead.
They tend to lead the barrel vs. a FMJ.
Reliability in a semiauto.
Logistics of using lead just for the M9, then FMJ in other platforms.
Extra smoke from a lubed bullet.
Lower FPS required to prevent smearing.
They tend to lead the barrel vs. a FMJ.
Reliability in a semiauto.
Logistics of using lead just for the M9, then FMJ in other platforms.
Extra smoke from a lubed bullet.
Lower FPS required to prevent smearing.
I'm assuming by 'hardcast' you mean lead.
They tend to lead the barrel vs. a FMJ.
Maybe semi jacket hard cast would solve that. Still not sure how it would apply to military use as better.
That would be a soft-point bullet, which is a no-no.Maybe semi jacket hard cast would solve that. Still not sure how it would apply to military use as better.
Ideal Tool
Moderator
Non-jacket military
Hello, 8shot357. The Geneva convention's of 1899 & 1907 outlawed so-called Dum-Dum bullets. Even the British were forced to use jacketed bullets in their old battle proven .455 Webley's. I don't think a cast bullet..unless made of a hard non-expanding alloy such as zink would be kosher. Perhaps a solid bronze like the old french Lebel?
Hello, 8shot357. The Geneva convention's of 1899 & 1907 outlawed so-called Dum-Dum bullets. Even the British were forced to use jacketed bullets in their old battle proven .455 Webley's. I don't think a cast bullet..unless made of a hard non-expanding alloy such as zink would be kosher. Perhaps a solid bronze like the old french Lebel?
Penetration is improved with FMJ...also, the military is not as interested in stopping as they are in wounding. Kill a man on the field and he lies there until graves registration picks him up. Wound a man and you take him, two litter bearers and a medical crew out of action.
Unlike self defense, wars are won by attrition.
Unlike self defense, wars are won by attrition.
troy_mclure
New member
Penetration is improved with FMJ...also, the military is not as interested in stopping as they are in wounding. Kill a man on the field and he lies there until graves registration picks him up. Wound a man and you take him, two litter bearers and a medical crew out of action.
maybe if we were fighting an enemy that didnt willing blow themselves to bits this theory would work.
i prefer to stop such people well before they can take me with them. myself
THEZACHARIAS
New member
maybe if we were fighting an enemy that didnt willing blow themselves to bits this theory would work.
i prefer to stop such people well before they can take me with them.
Nailed it. The current US military weapons inventory is the remnant of cold war era tactics and strategy. We are largely fighting the war on terror using very conventional equipment (special forces and OSI/CID excluded of course) in the hope that the next war we fight will return to more conventional forms. The weakened economy doesnt help either, because the bottom line is we dont have the money to make serious, far reaching changes to our weapons/ammo stockpiles.
It was the Hague conventions that dealt with soft point and expanding bullets; the Geneva conventions dealt with conduct of war and treatment of war prisoners, that is captured soldiers of the recognized armies of signatory nations. I am not sure how Al Qaeda fits into that picture, not being an army and representing no nation, but our politicians and professional weepers and criers seem always to be agonizing over how we treat the noble, adorable, cute, peace-loving killers our troops encounter in the Middle East.
Jim
Jim
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
Interesting concept, and exactly what would the Hague convention have to say about flat point, non expanding bullets?
IMHO the insurgents we are combating are not a "real" army AND rules of engagement set forth by various treaties do not apply to them.
There are too many reporters and politicians in this war. We need a good old fashioned media blackout were everything is "proof-read" by the military before being reported to anyone. I think after about 6 months, we could have a big turn around in the current situation.
There are too many reporters and politicians in this war. We need a good old fashioned media blackout were everything is "proof-read" by the military before being reported to anyone. I think after about 6 months, we could have a big turn around in the current situation.
hickstick_10
New member
Couple of other threads got me to thinking about this. Since, by treaty, our military is prohibited from using hollowpoint ammo, seems like a non-jacketed, flat point bullet would be the next best thing in handguns. Should even be cheaper to mass produce. Any reasons why not?
In a pistol ok, but whats the point?
Lead lubed boolits in a semiauto 5.56 or a 7.62...........no thanks. What about lead in a 50 BMG or 338?
Its an answer in search of a question IMHO.
I dont have an aversion to lead, in fact its all I shoot out of the guns I reload for. But since I doubt there sending men into combat with only a beretta and a knife I think jacketed rounds in a rifle are much better.
Because lead is slicker than copper, you can drive a heavier bullet faster than you can a JHP. In handguns. In modern infantry rifles of any caliber used since WW1, forget it.
Either gas-checking, hard-casting or both WILL solve leading problems. A gas check is a copper base-plate over the back end of the bullet, to act as a "heat shield" preventing the bullet's butt from burning off and plating the barrel during ignition. It's expensive by cast bullet standards, but usually the projectile is still cheaper than FMJs or JHPs.
You can get very expensive hardcast loads from Garrett, Buffalo Bore and the like, but you're not really paying for the bullets, you're paying for the R&D and expensive pressure-test gear needed to do very edgy loads safely.
The only other question is, can you get a "sharp cornered" flat nose ("meplat") to feed OK in a semi-auto? Depends entirely on the gun.
If I was kitting out US soldiers, I'd give them a backup snubbie wheelgun in 9mm with moon clips, with the rounds for same set up as nasty full wadcutters as a last-ditch "plan C" hideout gun. I'd make it 9mm so it can eat the same ammo as the full-size Beretta 9mm in a pinch. The Ruger LCR 357 set up as a 9mm would be a good platform for this critter that wouldn't break the bank bought in quantity.
Either gas-checking, hard-casting or both WILL solve leading problems. A gas check is a copper base-plate over the back end of the bullet, to act as a "heat shield" preventing the bullet's butt from burning off and plating the barrel during ignition. It's expensive by cast bullet standards, but usually the projectile is still cheaper than FMJs or JHPs.
You can get very expensive hardcast loads from Garrett, Buffalo Bore and the like, but you're not really paying for the bullets, you're paying for the R&D and expensive pressure-test gear needed to do very edgy loads safely.
The only other question is, can you get a "sharp cornered" flat nose ("meplat") to feed OK in a semi-auto? Depends entirely on the gun.
If I was kitting out US soldiers, I'd give them a backup snubbie wheelgun in 9mm with moon clips, with the rounds for same set up as nasty full wadcutters as a last-ditch "plan C" hideout gun. I'd make it 9mm so it can eat the same ammo as the full-size Beretta 9mm in a pinch. The Ruger LCR 357 set up as a 9mm would be a good platform for this critter that wouldn't break the bank bought in quantity.