hard cast lead wadcutter bullets for self defense ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed or beaten to death ???

but I'm thinking about loading cast lead bullets for practice with a lot of my revolvers, that I use to "just shoot" but which "could" be carried for self defense as well... on most snubbies, adjustable sights aren't an option, so I'd either need to adjust my handloads to shoot to point of aim the revolver is regulated to, & hope my factory self defense loads hit to the same point of aim...

To simplify, I could just carry my handloads... ( I've always been of the notion that one should carry factory loads, to eliminate any of the "load liability" in a shooting incident ) but, I do shoot my carry guns at "non targets" often, but usually at farm yard varmints ( seems a shame to waste those Gold Dots on a skunk or raccoon )... so, lately I have been questioning that, if I just happened to have my target shooting loads in the gun, if it were needed for self defense, I'd think they would have a hard time trying to prove I had some "super duper" killing load in the gun...

which brings me to the "spank" effect a wad cutter puts on a target, if the load is hot enough, to get the penetration needed, I'd think the "shock" of the wider meplat would be better than a round nose or flat point???

BTW... this would include calibers from 32 H&R ( in my J Frame ) through 44 Special in my 396...

thoughts or suggestions of any sources of info???

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

another question that comes to mind...

is a wadcutter bullet style going to be harder on the thin forcing cones of my air weight 32 J frame, LCR in 38, or air light 44 special ??? with normal loads

 

[SaxonPig]

WCs have been found to be a poor choice for defense. They are great for low velocity paper shooting but that's about it.

SWCs are better, but a good JHP is the best choice.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

ok... but why are the wide flat nose ( LBT style ) bullets the cat's meow for hunting, when they are in essence a wadcutter or semi wadcutter "style" bullet...

perhaps the lower pressures normally associated with target grade wadcutter loads is the issue, more than the bullet style ???

 

[HMC8404]

I hated cleaning lead from my S&W 19.5. Went exclusively to FMJ 25 years ago.

 

[natman]

WCs have been found to be a poor choice for defense. They are great for low velocity paper shooting but that's about it.

Factory 38 Special target rounds, sure. Hard cast wadcutters driven at respectable velocities is another story.

Take a look at these from Buffalo Bore.

 

[g.willikers]

Judging from all the data on self defense shooting that has been collected over the years, one thing seems very clear.
There's no telling or guarantee what any caliber or bullet will do for sure.
If you have confidence in this particular load, why not use it in your carry gun?
As the saying goes, the gun (and bullet) is the least of it.

 

[Model12Win]

I recall recently viewing a gel test on youtube where a fellow used a snub nose .38 to fire a 148 grain wadcutter, and also a 158 grain (I think) lead round nose into the gel.

There was virtually no difference in the permanent wound cavity, penetration was similar if I remember right. Now yes I know it was gel and not flesh, no bones were involved etc., but give me a good modern JHP any day over a full or semi wadcutter for defense, at least defense from human beings.

 

[44 AMP]

perhaps the lower pressures normally associated with target grade wadcutter loads is the issue, more than the bullet style ???

Basically, that's it.

Traditionally, wadcutters are target loads. Low velocity, low pressure, lead cylinders either cast from pure lead (or nearly so) or swaged from lead wire (also nearly pure lead).

Two styles are (or were) common, hollow base, and bevel base. (I'm speaking of the common .38 cal 148gr wadcutter. There are some differences in wadcutters in other calibers, but the characteristics are the same.

A Bevel Base Wadcutter (BBWC) is essentially a double ended lead cylinder. the hollow base (HBWC) is the same, save that it has a deep "hollow point" in the base, so that gas pressure forces the "skirt" of the bullet base to engage the rifling, like a Minnie' ball (bullet).

Shooters have long recognized the difference in observed effect between SWC and RN bullet shapes. Two bullets of the same caliber and weight (.38 158gr) and velocity, with the only difference being the nose shape of the bullet (SWC vs. RN) have shown observably different effectiveness in game and in humans.

The prevailing idea is that the flat point, and sharp shoulder of the SWC transfer more shock and cut tissue better than a RN bullet. No matter if this is what actually happens, or not, it's what we see happen, and I think serves as a good enough explanation.

SO, a full wadcutter (total flat point) should deliver the same, if not better results than the SWC. And, on paper, it does. But it only does in the real world, if the WC is made to match the SWC is all major particulars (bullet hardness, velocity, etc.). Soft lead wadcutters at low velocities simply cannot be compared to hard cast SWC at higher (or highest) speeds.

Now, if you cast WC to match your SWC slugs, and drive them at the same speeds, you will get very similar performance. Theory says you should get slightly better energy transfer, and slightly less penetration from the full wadcutter, but you'd have to make real world tests to see if the difference was a) some thing measurable, and b) something significant (there is a difference).

 

[davem]

Just some thoughts here...... The wadcutter is used because it makes nice CRISP holes in a target that are easier to score- so it is for target shooting. It creates more pressure as it enters the forcing cone/bore but with light target powder charges it isn't an issue. On the SCW hardcast lead. That is mostly for a hunting situation where you want a bullet to plow through an animal's shoulder and into the heart/lung area. Self defense is a whole other issue/situation. In my opinion you should never use a reload because if you are sued in civil court for wrongful death the attorney will portray you as a gun nut and trigger happy, a guy that even loads his own ammunition. I would pick a store bought ammunition- something that opens up quickly on soft tissue- designed for self defense.
Many years ago a few guys loaded wadcutters backwards so the hollow base faced forward. Claimed rapid expansion however you get into the same "gun nut" issue. You are better off with factory ammo.

 

[jglsprings]

44 AMP
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Staff
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,819

Quote:
perhaps the lower pressures normally associated with target grade wadcutter loads is the issue, more than the bullet style ???

Basically, that's it.

Traditionally, wadcutters are target loads. Low velocity, low pressure, lead cylinders either cast from pure lead (or nearly so) or swaged from lead wire (also nearly pure lead).

Two styles are (or were) common, hollow base, and bevel base. (I'm speaking of the common .38 cal 148gr wadcutter. There are some differences in wadcutters in other calibers, but the characteristics are the same.

A Bevel Base Wadcutter (BBWC) is essentially a double ended lead cylinder. the hollow base (HBWC) is the same, save that it has a deep "hollow point" in the base, so that gas pressure forces the "skirt" of the bullet base to engage the rifling, like a Minnie' ball (bullet).

Shooters have long recognized the difference in observed effect between SWC and RN bullet shapes. Two bullets of the same caliber and weight (.38 158gr) and velocity, with the only difference being the nose shape of the bullet (SWC vs. RN) have shown observably different effectiveness in game and in humans.

The prevailing idea is that the flat point, and sharp shoulder of the SWC transfer more shock and cut tissue better than a RN bullet. No matter if this is what actually happens, or not, it's what we see happen, and I think serves as a good enough explanation.

SO, a full wadcutter (total flat point) should deliver the same, if not better results than the SWC. And, on paper, it does. But it only does in the real world, if the WC is made to match the SWC is all major particulars (bullet hardness, velocity, etc.). Soft lead wadcutters at low velocities simply cannot be compared to hard cast SWC at higher (or highest) speeds.

Now, if you cast WC to match your SWC slugs, and drive them at the same speeds, you will get very similar performance. Theory says you should get slightly better energy transfer, and slightly less penetration from the full wadcutter, but you'd have to make real world tests to see if the difference was a) some thing measurable, and b) something significant (there is a difference).
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

Very succinct, well written, accurate.
This matches my experience and observations.

My favorite wadcutter.

 

[salvadore]

I like full range WW hard WCs

 

[T. O'Heir]

If Pepe or Rocky is rabid, you'll want the best bullet you can find. However, after a WC makes that nice clean hole in the paper target so it's easy to score, it's still a lead bullet. Lead bullets expand rapidly upon impact with far more reliability than any JHP and at lower velocities. Still not the best thing for a two legged varmint, but neither Pepe nor Rocky will survive. See many two legged varmints in the barn yard?

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

ah... but there in lies the problem... it's the gun I have, not the gun in the gun safe, that gets used, weather it be against rocky raccoon on the hay rack, or bad Bart on Broadway

 

[Derbel McDillet]

For snubbies, 148gr wadcutter is a good choice, especially if one doesn't want to deal with the recoil of +P, as most hollowpoints don't reliably expand and if they do expand (usually the lighter-weight bullets) they fail to achieve adequate penetration. The WC bullet shape is the most efficient for crushing tissue.

 

[Snyper]

ah... but there in lies the problem... it's the gun I have, not the gun in the gun safe, that gets used, weather it be against rocky raccoon on the hay rack, or bad Bart on Broadway

You still get to choose the ammo you carry when you're not specifically target shooting.

Wadcutters are not the "best" choice for self defense.

Against most animals it makes little difference

Against humans I want the best I can have, which I believe would be hollowpoints

 

[SIGSHR]

Limiting ourselves to factory loads for reasons of liability, I am of the school that Hits with Minor Calibers hurt a lot more than Misses with Majors and an accurate and light recoiling load that greatly improves chances of the first shot being a hit and allowing a fast second shot under conditions of stress and duress improves one's chances of survival. I recall Dean Grenell writing that more study should be done on the WC for defensive use, he said it was so exclusively identified with paper punching that no one gave much thought to other applications.

 

[davem]

A lot of this is personal choice but when you go to a small caliber like a 25ACP, 32ACp, etc. the body shot incapacitation time is horrible. If you are facing an armed attacker they can still kill you. On the little cartridges you need to take a head shot.

 

[Jim Watson]

Once upon a time, you could buy "Service Wadcutters" with the 148 gr wadcutter at 860 fps. This would certainly be preferable to round nose at the same velocity. There were no factory .38 hollowpoints made at the time, and while knowledgeable handloaders were casting semiwadcutters, they weren't sold over the counter, either.

You can handload the same now, or buy Buffalo Bore's even hotter wadcutters.

But there is a substantial minority who consider the plain vanilla midrange wadcutter to be suitable for self defense because they chant the mantra of "bullet placement" and maintain that its reduced recoil is The Answer to snubby management.

Me?
My Bodyguard M38 is loaded with 125 gr Gold Dots, but I don't have many left. When I resupply I will either go back to the old lead hollowpoint FBI load or look for the Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo.

 

[ammo.crafter]

hard cast lead

You must match velocity with the hardness of the lead bullets you are loading for. Look up BHN which will guide you properly.
I've been using lead in pistols, revolvers, rifles with deadly accuracy and excellent penetration. Leading has always been minimal with proper BHN.