Handloads for self defense?!

[knzn]

Another thread on here having to do with opinions on what the best load for a .38 snubbie would be had several people saying that they use handloads in their carry/self defence snubbie.

I have read several places that it is a bad idea to have to go to court after having used handloads in a self defence situation, no matter how justified the shooting was otherwise.

I am not at all arguing that a better load for self defence can be hand loaded than bought, just wanted to point out the legal ramifications for anyone who may not have considered them in their self defense ammo choice.

 

[sm]

This has been hashed about before. TTBOMK , nobody has ever been able to cite a case where /when/if a handload was used and a problem occurred with the legal system.

Another topic relates to the use of hollowpoint ammo ONLY for defence. I used to assist with CCW, the instructor always always told the students to only use JHP ammo.

*shrug*

-If a shoot is good - the shoot is good.

-Some folks in some parts of the country are NOT allowed to use JHP.
-Some folks in some countries are severly restricted in calibers and ammo choices...I'd feel better with .32ACP ball over JHPin that caliber anyway.
-I figure ammo must be reliable , good idea if ammo shoots POA/POI...since I personally put more value on shot placement [ and being "firstest with mostest"].
-Some simply want to cover their rear end if a student is in shoot - " I taught students to use factory JHP" . Litigtion does that....though to repeat again..to my knowledge nobody has in fact provided a cite for a person being grilled for using "home brews" or non JHP's.

-If a little old lady can better handle her .38spl with a mild load of home-brewed 148gr target wadcutters , more power to her. If she defends herself and the perp dies. Oh well...like the man said after a shoot no body will remember the make, model, type of ammo used...dead is dead.

-I put more brain power in NOT getting into a situation that might require a defensive use of firearm in the first place than ammo choice .

NO offense, I respect your point of view. I just don't worry about some stuff.

 

[Gazpacho]

When in doubt, shoot what your local police shoot.

Ammo I mean! Not people!

 

[Radicalcleric]

For years author Massad Ayoob has written against using hand loads for self defense but like sm notes it has never come up in court to anyone's knowledge. That doesn't mean it couldn't but unless you are doing something really out there like saw tooth bullets or poisoned bullets (and I know someone who did this) home made ammo probably would not be an issue. Most likely nobody would even know unless you told the cops you used hand loads and if you are ever in a shooting situation the best advice is to offer nothing other than to say you were the victim of a criminal act and you feared for your life and shot in self defense. I would offer no details or commentary.

 

[Quartus]

Massad has managed to make a mountain out of a theoretical molehill with this issue. When someone can cite a case where the question EVEN CAME UP, let alone influenced the case, I'll consider it worth thinking about.

 

[Marty Hayes]

Consider this. In a self-defense shooting at point blank range, you might just have to prove how close the perp was. For example, a female shooting an unarmed attacker, and he was within arms reach. This means, testing the ammunition and gun to test the power stippeling, which will give an range as how close the perp was. If you have handloads in your gun, no way that the tests are going to be considered scientific, or perhaps even court admissable. After all, YOU MADE the evidence!

Stick, with well known brands of ammo, and keep the extra from the box just in case you need to prove how the shooting went down.

 

[popbang]

"If you have handloads in your gun, no way that the tests are going to be considered scientific, or perhaps even court admissable."

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. To counter this you need to keep good records and include lot numbers. For me I also load my carry rounds in 100 round or more lots with lot numbers. By doing this I always maintain rounds of the same lot that could be used for testing. Further I go so far as to chronograph about 20 round from the lot I am going to carry. Now, even if I carried factory loads I would follow much the same procedures.

I believe the bottom line is if it is a good shoot your load won't matter, and if it is an unjustified shoot there will be other issues that matter much more.

 

[Marty Hayes]

popbang:

I understand what you are saying, but it will still boil down in court, 4 years later if it is a civil trial, that you yourself made the loads that you used, and that you claim were identical to those tested. Hope the jury believes you, but then again, if they don't believe you as far as the reloads, they probably will not believe you regarding other aspects of the shooting.

There is no logical or rational reason to use reloads for self-defense.

 

[popbang]

I agree with part of what you say, yet I must continue to disagree. In the criminal case I believe handload vs. factory is mute. Good or bad shoot will push the case.

In a civil case anything could be used, but again it will come down to if you were justified to use deadly force or not. By the analogy that reloads will be hard to justify as people will portray them as some killer bullet won't using the same ammunition as the local police department uses make you seem to be a cop wanna-be? I think to often we allow our fears of what might be cloud what is. If the you use a firearm you will spend quite a bit of money to defend yourself in court. You are going to have to get a ballistics expert to testify and to my way of thinking it will not matter whether you used a reasonable handload or hot factory load in the end.

edited to add: You can show by records and available lots of ammunition consistant loading procedures. We have all seen lots of factory ammunition that proved less than consistant. So, either way you go I believe the person carrying the ammo should check out what they carry.

 

[sm]

Something I have to keep in mind is the simple fact that on these forums, we have folks from all over the world.

Folks are subject to legal restrictions - both in regard to types of fireams and ammo choices ( i.e. no military, police calibers).

Now a person from another country , restricted, IMO is better off with ball ammo in a .25ACP or 32ACP. Of course I recommended to a person the 158 gr LRN in his Taurus snubby would IMO be my first choice if I were in his country. Reliabilty of weapon being priority basis for my suggestion for this case and the choices the gentleman shared. The other two guns and calibers were iffy on reliability and ammo avail.

Mr. Hayes - I respect your opinion.
Here in the US we are fortunate to be able to buy "Value Pack" ammo to practice in 9mm for less hassle & time than reloading. Many students will practice if the ammo is affordable. A box of White box JHP in 115 gr for a student to stoke the Glock 26, Keltec P-11, used 3913 ...is not expensive for carry use.

.38spl is pretty affordable in the US as well for a variety of practice and Carry loads.

I enjoyed teaching ladies,many had a familiy member that reloaded - which afforded more practice. Ladies will practice, and IME are better students because they do not have have the male ego , preconceived ideas...and don't buy magazines with floweredshirted guys pointing guns at self.

So when a student calls me a bit upset that they messed up and shot up all the carry ammo, testing for reliabilty and carried reloaded FMJ ammo until they either got back home or bought some..."what if something had happened and I had to defend myself with reloaded FMJ" - I replied "stopping the immediate threat seems more important to me than being raped don't you think?".

When the 80 yr with arthritis is getting some range time and she cannot shoot heavy loads from a model 10 and her late husband has boxes upon boxes of 148 gr target wadcutters she can shoot. Well , heck. use the darn target loads until I find that box of 158 gr standard velocity LWSC -HP factory loaded I have around here - somewhere. I dropped off the Factory Win and Fed for her. Her pencil thin bbl preferred the Fed for POA/POI. She lives an hour away, rode in with her daughter for CCW that day...I was about a week in getting the time to run down her way. In the meantime...

I just feel the ladies should feel confident and encouraged to defend themselves. They should NOT feel more afraid and scared of the Law and using "wrong ammo" - than being mugged, raped or worse. IMO.

Put a choice of having reloads and being armed or no factory ammo and not being armed and threaten to hurt a Mother's child or kidnap...hell has no fury like a momma protecting their kids.

So I respect Mr. Hayes , his wife and what he does for teaching , training and RKBA...
I just hope this better explains my thinking and rationale.

 

[HSMITH]

So, to begin with, who is going to tell the police that the ammunition you used to shoot the bad guy is handloaded? Do you think they will know? I don't, not even the medical examiner will have a clue. The odds of them asking are VERY low to non-existant. Even if it is mixed headstamp brass commercial reloads (as in factory reloads) are readily available. The burden of proof would be on the prosecutor, not you. If you shot someone and you have even a little intelligence you won't answer ANYTHING without counsel of an attorney in this day and age, and the police are only going to be concerned with the legality of the shooting anyway. If the shooting was legal all is well, if not you sleep in the bed you made. Ammunition source has nothing to do with it. Carry reloads if you want, don't if you don't want to. All this scary business of being hanged in the courtroom for using reloads is bunk IMO. I do what I choose to do and you do what you choose to do.

 

[Standing Wolf]

My hand-loaded .357 magnum rounds are more accurate in my revolvers than anything any factory ever churned out.

That said™, those are light target loads. It would take me a year to work up full power loads of comparable accuracy, and since I don't care to shoot a great deal of full power ammunition, I carry reasonably accurate factory fodder.

 

[Gewehr98]

Hashed out repeatedly.

A couple of the more recent dissertations:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65021

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63609

 

[twoblink]

SWC's are actually decent...

 

[gyp_c2]

hmmm...

...Who can tell us exactly...

...How would anyone know what you were using...IF you didn't tell?

What tests or techniques might be used to identify reloaded ammo from factory ammo without any samples?

Fired cases would be available I guess, but you've shot to slidelock and that's all that's left on the scene...

...just curious...g2

 

[Gewehr98]

gyp_c2, if you really think the forensic folks can't figure it out...

Then I have some potential waterfront property in Nevada to sell you.

From 1994 to 1999 I supervised a DoD forensics facility that went down to the molecular level in analysis - and that wasn't even cutting-edge technology. At around the same time, I was being recruited by a regional ATF crime lab, and received an in-depth tour. Suffice it to say, I am under no misconceptions as to what can or cannot be gleaned from the evidence.

 

[Mannlicher]

This topic is ALMOST as boring and non productive as the old "Which is better, 9mm or .45ACP" crap.
Just carry what you are comfy with. If that means store bought cartridges, then load 'em. If that means a Speer .357 146 grain SWP-JHP over a lot of Blue Dot, then load that. geez. All those experts, who have read Ayoob....... god save us all.

 

[Daniel Watters]

An unspoken issue is that many handloaders seem unable to maintain any level of QC with their loads. I've been to too many matches where even revolver shooters can't get their handguns to function properly due to their out-of-spec ammo.

 

[Gewehr98]

Well, Mannlicher, having put my money where my mouth is...

geez. All those experts, who have read Ayoob....... god save us all.

Instead of just reading Ayoob, I attended his LFI Course #1. And will be attending LFI Course #2 in the not-too-distant future. How's that for armchair quarterbacking? Let me guess, you'd probably tell Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch that he doesn't know jack about gun tactics, too.

 

[Quartus]

But the bottom line is still this:


Ayoob's concerns about the use of handloads for self defense are purely theoretical. I have yet to see one cite of a case where handload vs. factory load was an issue in a real court case, criminal OR civil.

I've yet to see one where it was even MENTIONED in court!


If someone has a cite, trot it on out for us to look at. Otherwise, Ayoob's speculations may make for interesting barber shop chatter, but they have no relevance to real life.




And Gewehr98, you STILL have the funniest sig line on TFL!