Handguns and dangerous animals

[BlueTrain]

I posted a thread on this or similar topic a year or two ago and this is partly to see what's new in the thinking on the subject. A few recent posts got me wondering.

My original thinking was, if you happen across a dangerous animal, what do you do? In other words, when do you shoot? There seems to be very little written on the subject by the old time gunwriters and hunters and what little there is doesn't say much. It seems to be of more interest in Africa than here.

There are dangerous animals in North America, though not so many on the east coast, as far as I can tell. There seems to be more the further west you go. There are bear here in Virginia, though I've only seen them a couple of times. There are elk, too, but I don't know if they are dangerous. Supposedly moose cause more injuries than brown bears but I bet people worry more about the bears. I also suspect that lions are the most dangerous because from all reports, they jump you from behind. Some reports mention that the person attacked defended themselves successfully with a revolver. But what about big animals?

Without getting into caliber (the bigger the better is assumed) or action type, or carry method (a holster is assumed), the question I first had was when you started shooting. Most of the time you might be able to get away (literally) without firing a shot, though this is certainly an instance where merely showing the pistol is going to make any difference. And contact distance strikes me as a little too late. I also suspect no one would actually recommend a pistol where the animals were really dangerous, aside from lions. Some authorities recommend a .44 magnum carbine or a 12-ga. if your aren't hunting. So the question is, then, is a handgun even a realistic possibility for this problem? To be sure, Elmer Keith was happy with his .44 and .41 magnums, though he didn't seem to ever be without even something larger in the backwoods. I know, he told the story of killing a bear when fishing but it didn't sound like it was going his way in the first place. But that is at least one possible answer: shoot when you see it, stop when you are empty.

What would you do?

 

[dmwphoto]

I know of no animal here in Virginia that would cause me to shoot. I guess if there were rabies or some other circumstance I would certainly be prepared to shoot but not simply based on a species. If I were under attack beyond a doubt and felt fear for my life I would shoot. The most likely cause of that would be another human being.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I also suspect that lions are the most dangerous because from all reports, they jump you from behind.

Actually, if I remember correctly the Hippo is the most dangerous animal in africa, based on number of people killed.


So far as "When do I shoot?" I think the answer is along the lines of "You'll know when it's time..."


Caliber? Well, I'd prefer something in the 12ga rifle arena if I could choose but for handguns I'd have to say 500SW, 460SW, 44mag, 41mag, pretty much in that order.

 

[armsmaster270]

If it isn't attacking you or another person or if it isn't severly injured and in need of being put down, leave it be. I've watched Cougars in the city along the river and did just that, watched it.

 

[Russ5924]

I think my biggest fear in dangerous animals is your urban Pitbulls

 

[Jim March]

I think my biggest fear in dangerous animals is your urban Pitbulls.

You got that right - statistically, a vicious dog (and not necessarily a pit) is the animal you're most likely to have to shoot.

Worst case scenario: it's trying to eat somebody else (likely a kid) and you have to shoot. THAT would be about the most nerve-wracking shot I can imagine, esp. in an urban situation where backstop is an issue. At that point, run up and get so close you're killing the thing with both the bullet and powder gasses blasted into the wound channel I guess...

I know a guy who claims to have pointed a Redhawk 44 at an Alaskan Grizzly. Turned out to be a bluff-charge, it stopped about 15 feet from him, he just stared at it's nose across his sights until it backed down. He says he managed not to show fear, which makes sense, it's likely why it backed down...no shots fired.

 

[herbie1]

Mosquitoes and house flies are the most dangerous animals.

Have fun trying to shoot them.



H.

 

[G-man 26]

Quote:
Caliber? Well, I'd prefer something in the 12ga rifle arena if I could choose but for handguns I'd have to say 500SW, 460SW, 44mag, 41mag, pretty much in that order.

Nothing on the 10mm pizza? I gotta go with the G-20, because thats what I've got. And yes, shoot as soon as it's needed, and don't stop until it isn't. (or you run out of ammo)

 

[thirdeagle]

I'm heading to the wilds of SW Montana in a couple of months. Until now the animals that posed the most threat to my safety were of the two legged variety. My concerns have changed considering the abundance of wildlife, including predators, where I'm headed. My EDC and woods gun is a Glock 29. I handles well, has been amazing accurate and reliable, and it conceals well. What more can you ask for?

 

[grymster2007]

So the question is, then, is a handgun even a realistic possibility for this problem?

Sure it is. Better than trying to gouge eyes with your thumbs. You start shooting when you're pretty sure that 's the best course of action and keep shooting until the threat has passed.

 

[BlueTrain]

Thanks for the interesting replies. I was only referring to North American animals and I didn't mention that. I generally agree with the reply that said in so many word, if it isn't bothering you, don't bother it.

Older writers sometimes had interesting things to say on the subject. At least one seemed to be content with just about anything but he was the one who talked about contact distance. Elmer Keith mentioned that some mountain lion hunters (which is the kind of lion I was referring to in my first post) used a .22 magnum pistol but they hunted with dogs. He clearly believed in something bigger. Other writers never mentioned the subject.

Dangerous animals in Virginia. Sure there are. Only other than bears, I've never seen any. I've seen aligators in Florida and buffalo in Oklahoma, and the buffalo was close. The buffalo looked about as as dangerous as a bull. In other words, standing still they look harmless but watch out. Haven't seen any feral dogs or mountain lions.

I seem to remember the original .38 ACP and later the .38 Super were popular with sportsmen, supposedly. The 10mm always seemed to me to be the next logical progression for those who liked things like that. I love the .38 Super (but don't have one--but I'm not a sportsman) and have had a couple but never a 10mm. So apparently carrying a handgun in dangerous game country is an old practice. It should always be handy.

 

[skoro]

Dangerous animals...

I've spent a good deal of time in isolated, rural locations. Areas where you'd expect to find potentially dangerous wildlife. I've encountered black bears, elk, snakes of all sorts, bobcats, etc...

The ONLY time I've ever felt threatened and had to use a firearm is when I was in the sights of a pack of feral dogs. One shot put down the presumed "alpha" and the rest scattered, lucky for me.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Interesting. Not too long ago I did a "realistic speed test" with the help of my dog. I posted my findings on another site but I'll repost here.

The bottom line is that I would now give an aggressive critter a LOT more space than I might have before this test.

semi-realistic speed draw test
I wandered through the living room while the wife was channel surfing last night and caught part of some movie where a wolf charged a "sheriff" character, knocked him down and killed him. I was thinking to myself "now that's stupid, why didn't he draw and shoot".

Then I got to thinking about how fast my dog Donny runs around the yard when we're playing chase and fetch.

So I took my favorite CCW rig and an unloaded airsoft pistol and went out into the dark back yard with the dog. It was after dark but I had one of the back yard lights on so I figured it would give me plenty of illumination to see the "target".

Then the dog and I played "hide n' seek" a bit to get him warmed up (he sits on the porch and waits for me to call, then he comes to find me). The dog has learned that if he wants to "catch" me he has to alter his routes around the various backyard obstacles (outbuildings, trees, shrubs) and believe me he's gotten to be a sneaky cuss

So my pretend scenario was that I "didn't know" there was a threat and could only start my draw when I actually SAW the dog approaching.

I called Donny and waited. I spotted him (roughly 30 ft) as he snuck up from the side and bounded towards me at a flat out run. I swept my cover garment, pulled the airsoft gun, and he "tagged" me before I could raise and take aim.

Second try, He made it easy and beelined from the porch right to the bush I was standing near. Spotted him at about 40ft, swept the cover garment, drew and took aim. I estimate I would have had time for two, possibly three shots but aiming was VERY tough since my "target" was running straight at me, in the near dark, at top doggie speed.

Third try, He got sneaky again and came around an outbuilding. Spotted him at less than 20ft and had time enough to sweep and grab the grip (but not draw) before he "tagged" me.

We did this about seven times before the dog got winded and slowed down. Of those seven attempts I estimate that I would have had one, that's right ONE good hit before I was tagged. Giving myself the benefit of the doubt I might have hit two other times but they wouldn't have been good COM hits.

And this was with the reaction time benefit of knowing that we were playing this game!

Talk about an eye opener regarding response time vs distance!

 

[The Great Mahoo]

While I prefer to carry a firearm just in case, I think it'd be very unlikely have ot use them on most any wildlife. Most critters are just as happy to leave you alone, most of the time. I've never had to use my fire arm against any animal, though there were times I had wished I had my pistol to shoot the damned raccoons that I chased out of my barn on more than one occassion.....

Mosquitoes and house flies are the most dangerous animals.

Damn right they are! They carry so much disease! Blast away as soon as you see any of them! [/sarcasm]

 

[Evan Thomas]

There are a bunch of threads on this forum about defense against two-legged predators (no, not birds! ) which stress the need for knowledge of the areas we're travelling in, situational awareness, a non-confrontational attitude, and having ways to defend ourselves short of resorting to a firearm.

All of this is just as valid if we choose to travel in places where we might encounter four-legged predators -- maybe more so, as the bear, or moose (yah, not a predator but potentially dangerous), or whatever we encounter is pretty much going to be minding its own business until we come along and startle it or whatever. I'd suggest that the first order of business for anyone who wants to carry any type of firearm for defense against animals is to learn how to act around wildlife so as not to have to use it except as an absolute last resort. There's a bunch of good information out there on how to do that: here, for example.

 

[Brian48]

Take this for what it's worth, but a hiker told me one time that he carrys an aerosol can of hairspray or some other flamable liquid and a lighter. If confronted by a medium/large animal fearing that you're encrouching on his territory, the large blast of flame tends to be enough to scare the animal into giving you room to leave, since all animals are instinctly afraid of fire. No one gets hurt this way. This is of course, BEFORE the animal is in a full charge and provided the animal is not rabid.

Now playing on the primal fear part makes sense to me and is perhaps the way to go if feasible, however it seems to me that this would be deemed illegal by the forrestry service. Bringing an improvised flame thrower into a dry forrest does not appear to be best solution even if it does work.

 

[freakintoguns]

ZeSpectre

thats very interesting, considering too thatyour dog is domesticated. Feral dogs and cats, wolves, big cats, bears, are running on pure insticint

 

[mnw42]

I play a similar game with my Beagle. She loves to be chased around the yard than round the pool and charge you.

 

[totalloser]

Living in the sticks, I have repeatedly encountered dangerous animals. Cougars, Bobcats, and Black bears.

First off, the animal responsible for the most deaths by far in my state is the white tail deer. Most animals will leave you alone. And if a cougar wants you, there isn't much you can do about it. By the time you know it's there, it's already got you. Thankfully, they are very shy of humans, and attacks are EXTREMELY rare. Same goes for Bobcats. But after seeing some of these creatures close up, I promise you if you cornered one and were persistent, they would be capable of killing you. Most wild animals possess strength, speed and agility to rival any Olympic athlete.

Having said that, the only LIKELY interaction in my area will be with a black bear. They are aggressive, scavenge in your garbage, and attack livestock here and there. I converted my .40 to .357 sig specifically for this threat. Would it save me from injury? I SINCERELY doubt it. But I probably would survive the attack as the animal would eventually bleed out.

An acquaintance of mine had an encounter with a black bear in his yard and shared his experience with me, giving me MUCH less confidence in stopping a bear with anything short of 50 caliber. He woke up to find a black bear in his yard tearing apart one of his dogs. Yelled at it from his porch with a .223 in one hand. The bear postured aggressively, and he emptied an ENTIRE 30 rounder into it. It paused, and he fumbled in a second one. Dumped the ENTIRE second mag into it, and it still covered about 40 feet before expiring at his feet.

Incidentally about 5 miles from his house fish and game had some interesting bear experiences. Recovering a tagged bear (deceased) they found a larger male had killed it and was residing on it's carcass. F&G retreated and came back and tranked it. A year or two later, they had to put down quite a few in the area due to a rabies outbreak-bears are carriers.

Black bears and pigs IMO are the ones to worry about as they will actively pursue you for the purpose of attack. Black bears will eat you even if you play dead. Only way to deal with pigs is to flee, or kill. Bears, on the other hand, you cannot outrun, or out climb. So be noisy and aggressive, and if you are attacked FIGHT! The nose is supposed to be sensitive, if your attempt at lead poisoning fails.

PS I have heard of people scaring off aggressive bears with an umbrella, but I don't know I'd trust my life to it. I wouldn't even BOTHER with mace.

 

[chemgirlie]

For most of my life I have lived in an area that has a very high population of bears. Most of them can be avoided by making some noise when you're walking through the woods (as long as you aren't hunting). However, when I take the garbage out I always make sure to be extra careful. We have a resident black bear in our backyard (which is mostly woods) that is pretty large and has a bad habit of dragging our garbage cans through the woods at night.
The animal that worries me the most is dogs though. There used to be a nasty one down the street from me. The dog has since been put down though.
When it comes to shooting an animal, if I felt I was in danger I would not hesitate to shoot. Thankfully I have never had to pull the trigger in self-defense, but if it ever happens, I wouldn't be hesitant about it.