Handgun stopping power
- Thread starter cohoskip
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black mamba
New member
An excellent study, and I believe, essentially correct. Where you hit has more correlation with "stopping" than any other factor.
I disagree with the conclusions, however. He says that larger, more powerful cartridges are better at "physical stops" and also at defeating barriers, but then in the conclusion he says caliber doesn't really matter. If you were in the 5-10% of attacks where the more powerful round stopped the attack when a lesser caliber would not, then that is pretty significant.
My conclusion is the same it has been for decades (I'm 56): shoot the most powerful cartridge you can control and shoot accurately. A .357 magnum IS more effective than a 9mm, if you shoot it just as well.
I disagree with the conclusions, however. He says that larger, more powerful cartridges are better at "physical stops" and also at defeating barriers, but then in the conclusion he says caliber doesn't really matter. If you were in the 5-10% of attacks where the more powerful round stopped the attack when a lesser caliber would not, then that is pretty significant.
My conclusion is the same it has been for decades (I'm 56): shoot the most powerful cartridge you can control and shoot accurately. A .357 magnum IS more effective than a 9mm, if you shoot it just as well.
Quote from the link:
I don’t think all that highly of the stopping power of handguns, and his conclusion is not all that different from what I think. If you are shooting at a target, a target which inside are vital components that have to be hit to stop it, and all these rounds have enough penetration to do that, then handgun stopping power is closely related to random statistics. The randomness of hitting one of these components.
I do think a big hole all the way through is the best solution as it creates a big blood drain. Blood loss may not be immediately incapacitating , but it is always fatal. Anything that bleeds, if it bleeds enough, it will die.
I don’t think all that highly of the stopping power of handguns, and his conclusion is not all that different from what I think. If you are shooting at a target, a target which inside are vital components that have to be hit to stop it, and all these rounds have enough penetration to do that, then handgun stopping power is closely related to random statistics. The randomness of hitting one of these components.
I do think a big hole all the way through is the best solution as it creates a big blood drain. Blood loss may not be immediately incapacitating , but it is always fatal. Anything that bleeds, if it bleeds enough, it will die.
I have always subscribed to the idea that if there was anything out there that caused me to react to it by shooting it, . . . I'd probably wind up shooting it until it quit giving me reason to shoot it in the first place.
Slide lock??? That is definitely possible, . . . because I am on the way to ending this confrontation, . . . why should I quit in the middle just to see how the other guy is doing?
He threatened my life, attempted to take my life, was willing and actively attempting to take my life, . . . if I quit now, . . . he may succeed.
Just remember, . . . ammo is cheap, . . . life is precious. Anything worth shooting at all is worth shooting twice.
Oh, . . . and that will make a difference in the stopping power of your hand gun, . . . whether it is a S&W 500 or a Phoenix .25 auto.
May God bless,
Dwight
Slide lock??? That is definitely possible, . . . because I am on the way to ending this confrontation, . . . why should I quit in the middle just to see how the other guy is doing?
He threatened my life, attempted to take my life, was willing and actively attempting to take my life, . . . if I quit now, . . . he may succeed.
Just remember, . . . ammo is cheap, . . . life is precious. Anything worth shooting at all is worth shooting twice.
Oh, . . . and that will make a difference in the stopping power of your hand gun, . . . whether it is a S&W 500 or a Phoenix .25 auto.
May God bless,
Dwight
I knew a fellow who was a veteran of the Vietnam War..and afterwards was in law enforcement ..then the CIA.... he swore by 38 Spl. loaded with Wadcutters.
He never went into detail ..but he knew there effectiveness first hand..
With the 148gr 38spl. wadcutter ..
they are accurate so you have good placement ,
they have low recoil so you have fast followup shots,
they penetrate like no tomorrow ...
the frontal area is .357 -.358
they cut through clothing..punch there way through tissue
Simply effective
He never went into detail ..but he knew there effectiveness first hand..
With the 148gr 38spl. wadcutter ..
they are accurate so you have good placement ,
they have low recoil so you have fast followup shots,
they penetrate like no tomorrow ...
the frontal area is .357 -.358
they cut through clothing..punch there way through tissue
Simply effective
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g.willikers
New member
On the last downrange.tv podcast, there was a reference to a defense training expert who carried a .22 mag revolver, and was confident that it was all he needed, to successfully defend himself.
Obviously he was depending on his skill, and not the caliber, to succeed.
Obviously he was depending on his skill, and not the caliber, to succeed.
Super Sneaky Steve
New member
I think this article settled the argument once and for all. The .22lr is way better for self defence than the .45ACP! 
.22
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
.45
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
.22
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
.45
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
^^
perhaps the type of person that carries that small of a caliber isn't trying to be "billy bad@##" and is more disciplined in self defense... however same shot placement between .22 and .45 theres no doubt 45 would cause more damage.
I wonder why he didn't include the .22mag, maybe i missed that in the article.
perhaps the type of person that carries that small of a caliber isn't trying to be "billy bad@##" and is more disciplined in self defense... however same shot placement between .22 and .45 theres no doubt 45 would cause more damage.
I wonder why he didn't include the .22mag, maybe i missed that in the article.
After reading the article, maybe I missed it, I did not see were the author factored in training.
*i did not see data on the number of rounds fired per engagement. It apperas that the author only considered the number of hits.
Most of us train to double tap when shooting an assilant. Trained individuals tend to use the bigger calibers while less trained use the smaller calibers.
Trained individuals would ,it would seem, have more hits in fewer shots total shots fired. An inexperienced individual would have fewer hits with more rounds shot.
While my experience is limited, the individuals who have used 22 caliber pistols tend to fire once look and then fire again.
25s do to their inherent inaccuracy, tend to be fired at close range and in panic mode. The proxemity of the target and the desperation of the shooter would account for the higher number of hits. Effectively, the perp was on top of them and the shooter could not miss. They fired as fast as they could.
I would like to see the author review his data and include a catagory of total number of rounds fired in each engagement.
Like most of these discussion the end results is.
Shot placement, shot placement and shot placement.
*i did not see data on the number of rounds fired per engagement. It apperas that the author only considered the number of hits.
Most of us train to double tap when shooting an assilant. Trained individuals tend to use the bigger calibers while less trained use the smaller calibers.
Trained individuals would ,it would seem, have more hits in fewer shots total shots fired. An inexperienced individual would have fewer hits with more rounds shot.
While my experience is limited, the individuals who have used 22 caliber pistols tend to fire once look and then fire again.
25s do to their inherent inaccuracy, tend to be fired at close range and in panic mode. The proxemity of the target and the desperation of the shooter would account for the higher number of hits. Effectively, the perp was on top of them and the shooter could not miss. They fired as fast as they could.
I would like to see the author review his data and include a catagory of total number of rounds fired in each engagement.
Like most of these discussion the end results is.
Shot placement, shot placement and shot placement.
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weldonjr2001
New member
Hmmmm. All I had to see was the .380 exceeding the .357 mag/sig and .45 to stop analyzing that study any further.
But it sure is pretty for those that like to be dazzled by numbers and catch phrases.
But it sure is pretty for those that like to be dazzled by numbers and catch phrases.
Well Weldon, Had you bothered to read the whole article you would have found that the author doesn't actually believe that the .380 is a better stopper than the .45 What that data compilation does reveal is a very real trend....Some people give up when shot -no matter where or what with. Some people keep going until they physically can't and some people shot multiple times never stop. I haven't shot any people but I have shot many animals and his results parallell my own experiences. "Stopping power" is interesting and fun to talk about/argue about but it is only slightly more real than unicorns and fairy godmothers and somewhat LESS predictable.
Well said stumper...I hunt a lot and there really is no stopping power in a standard defensive handgun. I shoot about 30-50 raccoons a yr. and use many calibers unless I hit central nervous system a 15lb coon can take a hit from my .41 rem mag and .45 acp as well as he can my .380. so a grown man certainly can too. So what ever you carry make a good shot and things will start going in your favor.
Carry_24/7
New member
True coop, there's too many variables in this subject. I have a range of calibers for specific CC situations, and I feel comfortable with them all; as I know the strengths and limitations of each. For example, I cannot and will not approach using my .380 with the 3" barrel the same way as my .45 ACP 1911 with a 4" barrel. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages compared to the other....and I need them both. I won't choose one over the other due to perceived "stopping power". I carry according to the situation at hand.
Is anyone coming out with an LCP-sized semi-auto .45 ACP?
Is anyone coming out with an LCP-sized semi-auto .45 ACP?
Thanks for the link. Something to chew on for awhile. Probably the most interesting and useful statistic is that measuring "% of people who were not incapacitated" and not the one shot stop percentage.
My assumption is that "the number of hits the person took" is always one since he was measuring one shot stop percentage. He probably should have expressed it more clearly.