Handgun recoil - How much is *ouch*?

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BillCA

New member
The subject is recoil and at what level does it really start to hurt.
This is, of course, subjective as some people are not intimiated by recoil while others are. But when does recoil start to impede your shooting performance? If we are talking defensive guns (and I am) then a gun/ammo combination who's recoil is enough to change your grip on the gun or prevent a rapid follow-up shot might be considered "too much".

But how many foot-pounds (ft-lbs) is that? Again, it's subjective as some people can't grip a gun as firmly as another person. So as a sort of experiment, I fired some different ammo from my S&W M649 snubbie until I found the .357 ammo that was "too hot" for rapid fire for me. Your mileage may vary.

Using that as a guide I undertook to find out how much recoil I was hanging on to with the 4 loads used. Using all Winchester ammo and WW's ballistic tables I calculated the recoil for each load in the 649. Of course then I wondered how other guns, especially the lightweight guns, faired. The results are shown on the chart below.

About the chart:
This is the best I could do quickly. Formatting is crude because I can't figure out how to insert an HTML table on this forum. The top of each column shows the WW catalog number and below that the bullet weight@muzzle velocity. Since the MV is off WW's tables it's not adjusted for the barrel lengths shown, but that's left to an exercise for the interested reader (subtract 50fps for each 1" of barrel reduced from a 6" test barrel). The numbers are approximate and not gospel. The left column is the S&W gun used to calculate followed by it's posted weight (ounces) by S&W. The numbers below each cartridge are the ft-lbs of recoil energy for that round in that gun.

For my personal use, I'd consider anything over about 11.0 ft-lbs as "too much" for defensive use as it could change your grip on the gun or reduce your ability to fire a 2nd follow-up shot with any degree of accuracy within 1 second. Again, you may be a better shot or less abused by recoil than I am. The list is sorted by the each gun's weight.

The Chart:

Gun Model.....Gun..... Q4204 ..X3576P . X357SHP. X357SP
............. Wgt/Oz. 110@1295 125@1450 145@1290 158@1235
S&W J 340SC 2"..12 ... 12.38 . 18.63 ... 19.68 .. 21.18
S&W N 327SC 2in 21 .... 7.08 . 10.65 ... 11.24 .. 12.10
S&W J 649 2" .. 23 .... 6.46 .. 9.72 ... 10.27 .. 11.05
S&W K 66 2.5 .. 32 .... 4.64 .. 6.99 .... 7.38 ... 7.94
S&W L 686 2.5.. 35 .... 4.25 .. 6.39 .... 6.75 ... 7.26
S&W K 66 4".... 37 .... 4.02 .. 6.04 .... 6.38 ... 6.87
S&W L 686 4"... 40 .... 3.71 .. 5.59 .... 5.90 ... 6.35
S&W N 627 5"... 44 .... 3.38 .. 5.08 .... 5.37 ... 5.78


Notes:
  1. For reference, an 8 lb shotgun firing a 1 1/8 oz charge at 1200fps yields 21.05 ft-lbs of recoil. Note that firing the Scandium Model 340 with 158gr .357 Mag loads is like holding on to a shotgun with one hand!
  2. The X357SHP 145gr is from a 4" vented barrel.
  3. The letter designation after S&W is the common S&W frame size.
  4. Shorter barreled guns may exhibit more/faster muzzle-rise making a 2nd shot difficult too. This is not quantified here.
  5. Ported barrels may significantly help reduce perceived recoil and improve recovery times for a 2nd shot.
 
J

John Ringo

New member
You are right....this is going to be a subjective thing. I know that some people do not like the Magnums for that reason. My 44 Magnum will turn most people's hands to mush by the end of one 50-round box of ammo. Mostly because of the wooden grips.

This is a good question though !!!! I am interested in seeing what other members have to say.
 
A

antediluvianist

New member
Good Try

Thanks for attempting to quantify the recoil of various gun-ammo combinations.

One other variable I would like to throw in : arthritis or other joint-painful diseases (in the case of older guys like me.)

FELT recoil - and joint pain - can be brought down considerably by the use of rubber grips. (Does anyone make sorbothane grips?) Light (low mass) guns just are too painful on the joints.
 
D

Danindetroit

New member
I got through 40 of the X3576P in the 340SC. It seems like the grip is small, can not hold it in my hands correctly, it feels like a fire cracker, going off in my hand. My hand was bloody after those 40 rounds, and the web of my thumb was swollen. I would have to put the muzzle on some skin to make it work for me. Could you post some gigures on the .44 mag, and the S&w 500, the big one with the compensator. TIA
 
P

PATH

New member
This is really subjective. I cannot handle the small Glocks or the Kahr K9 because I have large mitts. The high calibers with the short barrels seem to bother my hand a bit. I use rubber grips and tend to like a longer barrel on the higher calibers.( High caliber being .44 Mag. and up).

I have seen women of small stature blast away with cannons and seen very large fellas cringe and walk away. I'd have to sayt there is no definitive answer to this one.
 
B

Black_Snowman

New member
A Ruger SP-101 with full house .357s bugs me more than a Redhawk .44 Mag. I find sharp recoil to be the most painful and most likely to negatively effect my shooting. My big 50 AE Desert Eagle is a *****cat compared to the fireball and concusion it creates. More comfy than my titanium Taurus 455 in .45 ACP shooting hardball.

It's sliding scale by your chart. I can put up with the 158 grain rounds from a snubby easier than the light screemers. Comfy is probably in the 8 to 9 range but goes up with slow and heavy and down with light and fast.
 
Y

yayarx7

New member
Hmmmm, good posts. I would normally say that my 650cia is too much recoil with the full loads, but not if I go by your definition. Since I can empty all 5 quickly into the 10 ring at seven yards, weak handed. It does feel like somebody hit me in the palm with a bat or 2x4. I don't know if I could reload and do it again, maybe I should try.
 
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nobanforme

New member
I have fired over 500 rounds thru my Kahr K40 (.40 s&w ) with no problem. But There are times when 50 thru my .357 snub. kill my hands. I think that some times it depends on frame of mind and time of day or even the day of the week. On long work weeks it seems to bother me more. I always try to go to the range prepared but sometimes 1/2 an hour is enough. Other times I can shoot for hours. :)
 
R

Ruger # 1

New member
I can shoot full house .44 mag loads thru my Super Blackhawk all day, but I'll start whimpering after 5 or 6 rounds of .357 loads thru a light snubby.
Probably the worst recoil I've ever experienced from a handgun was a T/C Contender in .45-70. WOW!
Something else that plays a big factor , for me at least, is muzzle blast. I seem to develop more " shooter fatigue" when shooting high pressure, heavy muzzle blast loads, than when shooting milder loads. Yes ,I always wear hearing protection, but i think the blast can make a difference.
Just a thought.
 
B

BillCA

New member
44 Mag & 500 Mag Recoil

Okay, here's the figures for both the .44 Mag in several S&W variations and the .500 S&W Mag in 3 model configs. As you can see, the 500 S&W Mag should come with a padded shoulder stock!

If you'd like to figure this out yourself, the formula is;
(Bw Mv + 4700 Pw)2 / (64.348 Gw)

Where
Bw = bullet weight in pounds (7000 grains / lb)
Mv = muzzle velocity in fps
Pw = Powder weight in pounds (estimated)
Gw = Gun weight in pounds


.44 Rem Mag in S&W Revolvers

Cartridge Number ........ Q4240....X44MS...S44PTHP
Gun Model....... Wgt.. 240@1180 210@1250..250@1250
SW N 629 4" .44M 41.5oz ..13.33....11.71 ..15.8
SW N 629 6" .44M 45oz ....12.30....10.80 ..14.57
SW N 629 3" .44M 40oz ....13.83....12.15 ..16.4
629 Classic 5"...45.5oz ..12.16....10.68 ..14.41
629 Classic 6.5" 49.5oz ..11.18.... 9.82 ..13.25
629 Classic 83/8 53.1oz ..10.42.... 9.15 ..12.35
629 Lt.Hunter....52.2 oz..10.60.... 9.31 ..12.56
629 PP (Comp)....54.5 oz..10.15.... 8.92 ..12.03

Q4240 is the same as X44MHSP2; X44MHSP2



.500 S&W Magnum in S&W Revolvers
.................. Corbon....Corbon...Corbon
.................400@1675..385@1725..275@1665
500 4"......56oz....46.58.... 45.82.... 23.10
500 83/8" 72.5oz....35.98.... 35.40.... 17.84
500 10.5" ..82oz....31.81.... 31.29.... 15.77
 
K

k_dawg

New member
My H&K P2000SK with a hot S&W.40 round is at the limit of what I'ld call rapid *controlled* fire.

For defensive fire, I practice "Two in the chest, one in the head" shots on three different targets. Ideally, each target takes less than a second. I just let the muzzle rise as I go.

There is no way I could do that with the .357 snubnose.. ( well, two targets, 3 each )
 
F

FallenPhoenix

New member
when I first started shooting, .357 from a S&W Model 19 was nearing the "ouch" point. Now I handle it just as easily as the Glock 19.
 
T

Tom2

New member
How about too much blast?

I can't remember about the recoil, but I got ahold of a box of police +P+ 110grain .38, made by Winchester. Fired one cylinderful from a 2 inch barrel.
Besides recoil, it had a hellacious flash and blast. Made my ears ring thru the ear muffs! This was outdoors. Don't know how that compares to a 357 from a snub, but I suspect part of the effect may have been from faster powder than a typical mag. Did not seem the same as firing a magnum to me. Never had the ringing ears from a 357 magnum of standard configuration.
 
F

FALshootist

New member
I like the Glock 27 in 40. No problem there. The 44 magnum in 240 grain is at my outer edge of recoil tolerance. I don't mind shooting a box or two of them. I wouldn't want a 454 or any of the larger magnums.

The 44 magnum will do anything that needs to be done. That doesn't mean its right for everyone. I just don't need anything more.
 
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