H & R rifles inherently unsafe?

[Bosshoff]

Has anyone heard this before? I just met a guy I have known for a few years who is a pretty seasoned deer hunter. We started talking about the season coming up this weekend. He hunts in Northern Wisconsin. My brother pulled a tag in downstate Illinois in Knox County. (BTW, I only bow hunt during deer season due to time constraints and proximity to good hunting property ) Anyway, I mentioned that my brother was going to use my H & R Ultraslug hunter in 12 gauge. This is a rifled 12 gauge, drilled from a 10 gauge blank. It kicks like a mule, even with the steel weight in the stock, and the 9 lb. heft of the weapon. Knowing this, I had it Magna-Ported. Anyhow, this guy "John" starts telling me (with a concerned look on his face) how the H & R is not a safe design, etc. He said that the sear was know to slip, and discharge the weapon. He told me how his brother had one resting on his foot, and it went off by itself. (He did not say his brother was hurt.) He told me how he bought a 20 gauge one to teach his son, but after this incident, never shot it. I took all of this to be B.S., but I thought I'd ask if this weapon has some screwy history I don't know about. I get the obvious necessary precautions one has to take with a weapon with a spur hammer, just wondering if the internal design had at one time an "Achilles heel"?

 

[TheShootist1894]

Unsafe?????????????????

If I am not mistaken all H&R/NEF guns use the transfer bar firing setup(the hammer does not actually strike the firing pin)
I have used one since my youth and it has seen a truckload of highbrass and the like, and my shoulder the brusies to prove it
This gun is utilitarian to say the least and probably the best value going in modern firearms. . . .
That being said, I believe the Ultra Slugger is built on an even heftier action than the two I have (12 ga 3" and 223 Rem)
I have never experienced a hiccup, misfire, premature fire, or really anything other than satisfaction with these great shooters. . .

 

[Full-choke]

Completely agree, my buddy owns 3 or 4 H&R/NEF Shotguns, he has NEVER had a problem. I have used those guns hundreds of times and felt comfortable. I trust those guns more then I trust some others just for the fact that they are so simple that there isn't much to break/wear down.

F-C

 

[CraigC]

I'd like to know why his brother was standing there with a rifle butt rested on his foot with the hammer cocked?!?!?!?!?!

 

[srtrax]

I think the word B.S. you use is about right. I sold more HR's in rifle form back when i retailed, mostly for youth guns, and all i got was great feedback about them. As with anything mechanical, something can go wrong, belive that is why one rule is... always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction! I dont think that would mean ones foot...

 

[Scorch]

Single shot shotguns have been around for a long time, and have been considered a safe beginners' gun since you can see if the gun is cocked or not. Calling them unsafe goes against common knowledge about single shots. The H&R design has a transfer bar and a rebounding hammer, both intended to make the weapon safe.

The only concern I would have with an external hammer single shot is when the person behind the trigger is inexperienced and excited, but that goes for any firearm.

I'd like to know why his brother was standing there with a rifle butt rested on his foot with the hammer cocked?!?!?!?!?!

Pretty much my thoughts, too.

 

[Bosshoff]

I did not mean to infer he was standing there with the hammer cocked pointing the muzzle at his foot. The way it was relayed to me was that the butstock was resting on his shoe. His hand was holding the side of the muzzle. The weapon discharged. He didn't say if it was dropped, bounced, cocked, or un-cocked. He made it sound like something was internally wrong with the design of the guts (sear?) which would allow it to "go off" without notice. I thought it was total BS, but It hought I'd ask. No one was hurt in his story.

 

[FirstFreedom]

I also vote "BS". They're good rifles. Rossi single shots are a better value though. Not American made like the NEF, but more gun for the money. I have two of the Rossis, and 3 or 4 of the NEFs (3 now, lol).

 

[pesta2]

He made it sound like something was internally wrong with the design of the guts (sear?) which would allow it to "go off" without notice.

I think if it was that bad it would be off the market now after a lot of lawsuits.

 

[joshua]

I have had one of these single shot H&R single shot shotguns before. I thing their design is simple and hard to beat, except BS stories like, "It was just resting with the hammer cocked and it went off by it self". To tell you the truth, the one I had I ended up dropping with the hammer cocked. This was during my younger years where I got really excited when looking for grouse. I saw, I ran after it and probably cocked the hammer upon seeing the bird. I lost my footing on the eneven ground and adrenalin and I had to brace my fall with the gun. I did notice the cocked hammer and it did have a live 20 gauge in the chamber. The gun was pointed away from my hunting partner, trigger finger was not on the trigger and the gun did not go off accidentally. The cocked hammer and scratched up gun bothered me. Oh! Well. I can't keep blaming myself, I did learn a good lesson. josh

 

[RevolverLover]

I have a couple of H&R rifles and never a problem.

 

[chris in va]

He's mistaken, pure and simple.

The NEF/H&R design requires the hammer to be cocked to fire. If the hammer is down, the transfer bar prevents accidental discharge if the hammer is struck. There's no spring loaded anything that would cause the gun to fire with the hammer down.

Now on my 410 the trigger is pretty light, probably about 4# or less. So hammer cocked, slight brush against the trigger could certainly cause a ND, but not the way he is describing things.

 

[Selfdfenz]

Chris in VA beat me to the punch. In addition to this scenario being an unrealistic possibility for one of the newer NEF or H&R units, we might give the story teller the benefit of doubt that he mis-identified the firearm in question as an H&R when it was actually something else. Still, the story has a certain smell factor.

Best

S-

 

[Limeyfellow]

Never had a problem with either of my H&R shotguns. Handy little brutes. I can't imagine how he managed to get it to go off like that unless he been filling away and modifying the action, and even then it wouldn't be that easy to do. Give another vote for a BS story.

 

[cptmclark]

A first hand malfunction problem

I found this looking for a place to ask who has had a similar experience and suggestions. \I bought a Handi Rifle (same as shotgun, I think) in 50 S&W for a guy, scoped it, bought two boxes of different 50 buck plus ammo, scrubbed it up and proceeded to the nearest range (one hour) to zero it for him. Gun opened on firing and as you would expect had terrible accuracy. Sent it back. It came back and still did the same thing. Had to rescope it, travel to the range and all that again. Now it never hurt me, but how good can it be to fly open on every other shot? After several frustrating times calling CS, I found the CS manager, one Gordon Haskins I think. Nice guy, said lots of thse coming back in the 50 cal version, and agreed to replace the rifle. Since the 50s are having problems we decided to change to 44 and my guy agreed. I shipped it back again, (my expense) still with tags, manual, warranty, and the nice fibre optic sights.
Four weeks and maybe eight phone calls later, I just got the 44. No manual, no warranty papers, no tags, they kept the fibre optic sights, and no targets.
I had bought him dies, brass, bullets, the guy is set up, soon as I get it dialed in and broken in if needed. They claimed on the phone it had been test fired 50 times and I'd get the targets. No targets came with it.
Re-scoped it (theres a reason for all this boring detail) did some handloads to test, bought some factory ammo, (I don't own a 44) and trudged off to the range.
Eight out of ten shots the action flew open. Terrible accuracy. Hmm. Same serial number. They just changed the barrel out, kept it for over a month, and sent it back for me to test.
I called CS again today, and best suggestion I can get is money back. Well great. 200 bucks back after all this and I'm stuck with the loading stuff. I'm out over 200 bucks other than the rifle and many hours now. Manager will call me tomorrow (promise, right), but CS lady says he does not have authority to change out a rifle. You can tell the wound is still fresh. Nice little gun and I've seen lots of them work just fine.
But they can and do have quality and function issues.
Tiny bit off thread, but I'd be grateful for any suggestions on how to at least get a replacement sent out before the season is completely over. Thanks guys.
Oh yea, they do have a transfer bar safety gizmo, but if the action lock failed, I would'nt be surprised if there was another failure. I'm no expert on these. Too bad, nice light little gun.

 

[Lavid2002]

No way....

Ive owned a 12 gauge pardner pump acton by H&R for about two years now. I go skeet shooting about 2 or 3 times a week in the summer. My shotgun has probo:ably seen over 5,000 shotshell from skeet shooting. And about two cases of steel shot while waterfowling. never a Misfire, Never a malfunction with the safety, Never a falure of the locking lugs, extractor etc....Although it wants to be an 870 and is fairly inexspencive Ill stand by this gun! Ive even fired steel through a lead shoke tube, heated and whaked it out and this gun is still goin! This shotgun has seen two different blueing jobs and has had the rust scrubbes off of it so many times I still cant beleive i make it to that nice finish. And yet.....not a single problem. The ONLY thing that has happened with this gun aside from the choke tube, I had some had-to extract shotshell hulls after firing them. Turned out to just be those shells...they were very old. H&R has made its way into my heart : P Ill trust this shotgun not to misfire anyday. And you should too.

 

[cptmclark]

Glad you've had great experience

As you see, my only experience has not been so good.

 

[CraigC]

I did not mean to infer he was standing there with the hammer cocked pointing the muzzle at his foot.

No, I understood it as resting the butt on his shoe with the barrel (near the muzzle) in his hand. My question is why would he be standing there in that position with the hammer cocked. Be about like loading a muzzleloader with the hammer cocked and a fresh cap on the nipple. The hammer would have to be cocked for it to go off, unless one of the older guns was dropped...hard. I don't have the H&R my uncle gave me my first Christmas so I don't remember how exactly they were setup ignition-wise. A traditional half-cock action, IIRC. I agree with the others that either some very important details are missing from this story that would point to serious mishandling or the story is just complete BS. They've sold thousands and thousands of these guns over the years and this is the first I've heard of it.

 

[Hemicuda]

My first shotgun was an H&R Topper 12 Ga... got it 25 years ago, have carried it ALOT, and shot it TONS...

I also have a 20 Ga. / 30-30 convertible, a .22 Hornet international, and a 10 Ga. all in H&R single-shot form... ALL carried and shot ALOT...

some have been accidentally dropped...

NONE have ever FAILED to fire, or fired when the trigger wasan't pulled EVER... they all use a transfer-bar, and are all assafe as ANY gun I own...

I call BS on this one!

 

[kozak6]

They're plenty safe, especially if you don't cock it until you are ready to fire.