"Guns are easier to get today"...?

[thaddeus]

Yet another (middle aged) woman on the news, this time someone off the street, said that "in her day, people settled things with fists, but today everyone uses guns and knives.". She further said that "guns and knives are just too easy for kids to get today, so that's why kids go to them".

Excuse me? Okay, I was not even old enough to be conscious until the 80's, but I recall that my home had lots of big knives in it, and guns in the closet. I could be wrong, but I think knives have always been part of society (sarcasm).
My dad reports growing up with guns, so from what I know, kids in the 50's and 60's could just have easily grabbed Dad's gun or knife and gone postal. Pipe bombs and "molotov cocktails" are nothing new either.
In fact, I am out of high school, and just a few years ago in the late eighties and early nineties, there was no gun violence on campus, we settled things with fists. It was right after I gradutated, in the early 1990's that I sudenly started hearing about kids grabbing guns, and I couldn't believe it because that was unheard of in the 1980's, except perhaps in downtown LA gang areas.

Am I wrong? I wasn't there in the 50's and 60's...I don't know, but why is it supposedly "easier for kids to get guns today"?
For all I can tell, this is a bunch of BULL****. Pardon my french, but if anything, guns are HARDER to get today....WAY harder to get.

Tell me if I am wrong, I wasn't there, but are guns any easier for kids to get today than they were in generations past?

thaddeus

 

[Kodiac]

Guns easy to get? So easy kids can et them by the lunch box full...
Where is this place? Me and all TFL members will go in and get them all and make sure they get stores in good trusty honorable places that these kids cant get them with out proper adult supervision.

Problem solved...

I get first picks

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SICK AND TIRED OF...

 

[Destructo6]

Aye Kodiac, I too would like to get some of those evil guns off the streets and into my closet.

I almost think that kids today are far too restricted in the activities they may do. It would probably be easier to catalog the things that are allowed than the things that are prohibited. This is sort of like bottling up burning gunpowder. You get an explosion instead of an annoying burn.

 

[pate]

Weren't kids allowed to buy guns themselves before the GCA of '68? Couldn't people buy guns through the mail (without FFLs) before the GCA? If the thousands of gun laws passed over the last few decades have made guns easier to get, then maybe we should repeal them. Apparently, fewer gun laws would make guns harder to get.

 

[Mike in VA]

Gentlemen, it's all part of the big lie theory, that is, if you say it often enough it becomes accepted as part of the urban mythology, and the whiners and anti's are very adept at spinning myths. The media is no help either, they seem to get maybe 20% of any story right. As I sit here writing I'm listening to the news and one of the talking heads is saying that gun violence is increasing when the FBI's own stats say just the opposite. then there was teh part about teh automatic weapons. The f*kkers simply don't know what they're talking about, but the public sees and believes, no thinking required or attempted.

It is absolutely BS that guns are easier to get today. With all the negative pub and rhetoric, people are much more conscientious about securing their firearms that when I, or you, were growing up. What has escalated is the brinksmanship and need to make a big splash that so many of these dweebs feel they need to make. Teenagers have always been self-absorbed and mellowdramatic, but I have yet to hear of a conceivable slight that one could suffer in high school that justified taking another's life. Although I agree that it's inappropriate and premature to jump on the parents until all the facts are out, it's pretty clear that there is a serious lack of grounding and values that ARE the parents responsibility in any event.

when I'm elected god there will be many changes (I have a very long list-). M2

 

[Jffal]

I grew up in close proximity to handguns (and some acquaintances owned longarms). Never had a serious urge to plug anybody during my troubled youth, especially when my first session of plinking outdoors (unfortunately, without hearing protection) proved to be a sobering experience; using weapons is a serious business.

But of course, if you believe you have "nothing left to lose"...
Jeff

 

[RadarMan]

TALK ABOUT EASY ACCESS...These people don't have a clue!
Growing up in Vermont, we had guns ALL OVER the house. I received my first hunting knife and winchester 22lr bolt at the age of 11. I had to carry an unloaded rifle in the woods for 2 whole hunting seasons before I could have my first round to chamber in the woods with "the men". By the age of twelve I was shooting rabbits at the old saw mill behind the elementary school... I had to cut through the school property to reach the hunting grounds. Never, and I mean absoulutely, positively, undoubtedly, NEVER do I conciously remember thinking to point my firearms at another individual!!

P.S. At the age of 16 we had a visitor from some city in New Jersey stay at the house. He was given my room. That evening he asked my dad if he could take the rifles off the gun rack over my bed cause they made him nervous. My dad did the smart thing... he put them in my sisters room!

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[Karanas]

Thaddeus, I'm not trying to be cute by answering your question this way, but yes, guns are easier to get today, and no, they're not.
LEGALLY, guns are harder to get today. Depending on where you live, the legal acquisition of a firearm can be nearly impossible. Between federal, state and local regulations, background checks, forms and other assorted paperwork, it can be a real pain in the butt if you care about staying on the right side of the law.
ILLEGALLY, getting a gun is as easy as getting a bag of marijuana. All you need is the cash, a connection to a black market vendor and the willingness to step outside the law.
Supply and demand. Reduce the (legal) supply, and you increase the demand. As the demand goes up, so will the (illegal) supply. And so will the underground network necessary to provide it, making it easier for those that can't or won't buy legal firearms to buy illegal ones.
Availability becomes more widespread, and you find yourself with a marketplace that is immune to regulation.
Pass all the gun control laws you want, they won't affect this market. Everybody involved is already breaking the law, so what's a few more?
Even if you ban firearms completely, they'll just be smuggled in like drugs are today, or manufactured in underground factories.
Bust the dealers and they will simply be replaced by others who are looking to make a quick buck.
Pass more restrictive gun legislation, reduce the size of the legal market and you only increase the size of the illegal market. And those guys don't care who they sell to. Gang banger, businessman, drug pusher, high school student, it's all the same to them and it's getting easier every day.

 

[thaddeus]

I see your point Karanas, but it seems that basically, the ability to get guns has not changed. Perhaps the means, but not the ability.
If people used to be able to order guns through the mail, but the bad guys and kids were not using them as ferociously as they do today, then the supply has not changed, and the ability to get guns has not changed, so guns have not made people do these crimes.
I am just trying to find out how hard it was for a kid or criminal to get a gun in the decades past. It sounds like overall, it has been pretty easy. Now days they get them through the black market, but overall the supply hasn't changed: kids and criminals have always been able to get guns easily, but for some reason these days people are using all kinds of weapons for heinous acts.

thaddeus

 

[DC]

I grew up on a farm...we had guns all over the place and they were unlocked. My dad bought me my first guns and, in fact I was his primary hunting partner starting from age 10..I had a Ruger 10/22 at 12 and was allowed to shoot rabbits and ground squirrels by myself if I chose to...a Mini 14 at 16. It should be noted though that the number of places to legally buy guns have drastically decreased as I've grown to adulthood. So, I'd say that guns are harder to get legally these days.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

 

[LoneStar]

I have to agree with Karanas on the supply/demand theory.
I also grew up in the 80's, and my Dad's closet was, and is, full of guns. Growing up, I and my brothers & sister NEVER touched any of those guns without Dad's permission. Why, because we all had a serious case of healthy fear & respect for Dad. That, and we boys, when we began to tag along on hunting trips were shown first hand the damage that bullets inflict. It was the most effective lesson I ever learned.
I think the problems we face today have many causes, and one of those causes is the Serious shortage of Dads.


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Let's go Huntin'

 

[Mikey]

The big difference between then and now is not so much the gun availability issue but the personal responsibility/morality issue.

One used to be a kid until age 18 and became a socially aware adult after graduation from high school. Religion and prayer were good things and deviant behavior was bad. Even if one practiced less than honorable behavior it was with the knowlege that it was bad and punishment would follow if one was caught.

Now days prayer and religion are "bad" - if they weren't, why would they be outlawed in school? Deviant behavior is just a "lifestyle" choice and one shouldn't be intolerant of such cultural diversity. School has become a social club and fashion show with the kids trying for the most "shock value" in their fashion and actions. The internet puts the information of the entire world at their fingertips and kids are just not mature enough to handle it. The line between fantasy and reality is quite blurred.

 

[Greg G]

Back in the sixties when I was in junior high and high school, I had my own 12 gauge semi-automatic shotgun and .22 semi-automatic rifle which I kept in cases in the closet of my room. The ammo was kept on a top shelf. I used these guns when my dad and I would go hunting at various times of the year. I was also a band geek and carried a trumpet and a briefcase to school everyday. I caught all kinds of hell from bullies and other half-wits because of my small size and the stuff I lugged around. I used to dread going to certain classes because of the crap I would have to endure. Eventually that stuff stopped and school became enjoyable.

I have thought about that lately and realized that it never occured to me to take one of those guns and get even with my tormentors at school. My dad taught me respect for firearms and apparently trusted my to keep them in my room and not put away with his. I have always associated happy times with firearms, luckily I have never experienced personal tragedy with them.

 

[Grayfox]

What we are experiencing is not a problem with avalibility, but with attitude. When I was a kid (mid-fifties through the sixties) everybody had at least one gun in the house. I was for hunting, self defense and recreation. It was a Tool!.
Today that same gun used for the same purposes is a Weapon. A distinct difference.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

I agree this argument is absurd. I wonder if there are any relevant stat's that could help our case?

For example, one statistic that would seem relevant is the number of guns per capita. Does anyone have a source or know this stat for the last few decades? Would be interesting to compare # guns / person in 1930, 1950, 1970, 1990 and today. What other stat might be applicable?

And, if the anti-self defense types keep this up, there will be a significant contingent in the country that will be reducing 401K retirement plan contributions in favor of 223Rem, 308 and 45ACP retirement plan contributions. That will put more guns into circulation, or at least into safes.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited April 23, 1999).]

 

[Brett Bellmore]

"Guns are more available now." doesn't need all this analysis; It's just a lie, plain and simple, and the media repeats it because the only source of information on guns they trust is the gun control movement, their ideological soul mates. And when it's something they're this ideologically committed to, they don't really give a damn about truth. I don't know how many times I've presented evidence to the local paper that they'd published some lie about guns, and they NEVER correct it. They know they are lies, and they JUST DON'T CARE.

 

[RadarMan]

Grayfox,
That is exactly why, recently, I have been trying to deprogram my military training of calling these things WEAPONS. I have been making a very concious effort to always refer to them as FIREARMS instead.

USMC, EARLY 80's boot camp rifle cleaning mantra.

THIS IS MY WEAPON
THIS MY GUN
ONE IS FOR KILLING
THE OTHER FOR FUN

must have said it a thousand times in three months.

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[Gunslinger]

While growing up in rural Missiouri many of the "kids", including myself, drove pickups to school. Of those at least half had a gun rack, complete with one or more loaded guns in them. Being a "handgunner" from an early age I carried a revolver in a rig with the belt draped over one of the gun rack hooks. While away from the truck I simply dropped the holster behind the seat and allowed the belt to remain on the hook. While in the truck the gun hung in front of the seat. My truck was never locked (something I'd be afraid to do today of course) nor, do I suspect, most of the others trucks with guns in them. There were fewer gun laws on the books and the idea of a school shooting was never an issue.

Guns, knives, drugs and alcohol are all illigal in our prisons...............
Think about it.

Gunslinger

 

[Ed]

Brett has the correct answer. Anyone my age(62) knows guns were as available as common hand tools were, almost everywhere except NYC, before the GCA of '68. I ordered surplus military rifles from mail order houses in VA and NJ in the 50's and 60's, and all you needed to order handguns was a signed statement that you were over 18. Ammo was sold at gas stations, country grocery stores, etc.

Like Brett says, the media are total ignoramuses when it comes to firearms. They think everything the NRA says is a lie, and everything HCI says is gospel truth. Actually, they really don't care if is true or not as long as it supports their agenda, the total banning of all guns. I no longer bother e-mailing the Atlanta TV stations with proof of their lies, they never retract any of their BS, just go on to new lies.

 

[Art Eatman]

Just a few details: Before the GCA of 1934, pretty much anybody could buy and own anything, including any machine guns.

Some changes at the state or local level, until the GCA of 1968--which followed the murders of Kennedys. No more purchases by mail-order, and the beginning of the 4473, the "Yellow Sheet". Also, the beginnings of restrictions on merely sending "gun-stuff" through the mails, separate from purchases.

I believe it was September, 1985, when Congress outlawed the sale of newly made full-auto weapons. During 1985, the legal population of full-auto stuff doubled, from around 90,000 or so, to over 180,000 (approx.) After September, full-auto prices doubled. Ironic note: BATF testified that there had never been any crime commmitted using a registered machine gun. However, the NRA allegedly found a case in Oklahoma wherein a policeman had used his own legal machine gun to kill his wife...

Yeah, legal acquisition is far harder; illegal acquisition seems easier. I rather assume this is due to more burglaries (?). We have other threads about security against burglary, right?

The obvious problem is that gun laws affect the law-abiding but not the crooks. And the federal record-keepers tell us that over 85% of all crime guns were illegally acquired or possessed.

But the "disarmers" don't care about facts, as we have all commented upon...