Gun siezures and LEOs

[GPossenti]

Disclaimer: I am not trying to pick a fight, just trying to get some perspective.

I think it's safe to assume that many of the LEOs are pro-gun or pro-2nd amendment in that private citizens have the right to bear arms. (If I am wrong, please let me know).

If the city/county/state/parish/country in which you serve decided to ban gun ownership, would you partake in confiscating guns from private citizens?

 

[shooter_john]

Your first assumption is probably wrong, most are not "gun people" and unfortunately many seem to be less than fans of 2A. (That probably varies by location/ region)

But if my Sheriff/ Sheriff's Office ever gets involved with a confiscation program, mine will be one of the first of several badges that would hit his desk. (But I can't foresee that ever happening, not soon or near future at least)

 

[GPossenti]

Just a reminder

This question is not at all to demean LEOs or attack them, judge them, etc.. I'm not 100% sure how I would answer the question, that's why I'm asking.

Thanks for the input so far.

 

[Scattergun Bob]

GPossenti

This is a good question. Thanks for standing up about the nature of your thread.

Unfortunately shooter_john is in my opinion correct. Most Peace Officers are not gun people. Most Peace Officers view the 2nd along the lines of department policy and legal mandate.

Your question is very tough to answer, and would have been a extreme soul search for me, had it happened during my LE career.

Here is the problem, there is a line between personal values and duty. Let me give you an example.

During my career we had a incident named "the little salmon river wars" between state enforcement agencies and an Indian tribe. I will not go into detail but it developed into near life threatening incidents several times over a 10 day period.
The point is that my personal values regarding the regulations favored the Indians, however my duty was to uphold the state mandate. I was forced to take direct action against a group who's position I supported, or to do as Shooter John suggest, and toss away my career. I chose to honor my oath and enforce the state mandate. All the while hoping that my action would be overturned in court proceedings latter.
It was a very tough position to be in and thankfully this type of test between personal values and duty to the state did not rear its head with any frequently.

I believe most Peace Officers would execute a mandate to confiscating guns from private citizens, regardless of there personal values. Those whom found the mission beound there ability might look to take days off, vacation time, personal leave, or as John suggests, the gun and badge on the commanders desk.

God help us if that day comes!!!!!

Good Luck & Be Safe

 

[Al Norris]

The original question was posed to those Officers that might read it. It was not posed to you, the ordinary citizen. In light of that, and starting with post #5, it has veered and is now about what you, the ordinary citizen would do.

Posts #10 and #12 are on topic. That's 6 posts out of 25! Everything else has been off topic.

The OP didn't ask you guys what you would do. He asked what the LEO's on this board would do. Get it back on topic. Quick like.

 

[shooter_john]

Ok... I'll jump back in for a more in depth explanation of what I said in my first post. (and thanks to those who expressed appreciation towards my original post)

First of all, I don't agree with taking firearms from "the people" on any level in the first place, and obviously the Constitution feels the same way. I totally believe in one's right (and responsibility) to take care of and defend him/ herself. I could not ever allow myself to support or take part in such a gross violation of people's rights. (If it ever did happen, God help us have that decision overturned ASAP.) Therefore the issue in itself is a huge reason why I would have to find a new line of work. (My commission card states that I swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States... so really, I'd be voiding my commission/ authority by doing my job, right?)

Secondly, I live/ work in Alabama, a state who's citizenry is quite proud of our 2A rights and most of us seem to celebrate them with a few firearms each, and I don't foresee most of those people just giving them up... I DON'T HAVE A DEATH WISH!!! I have got 2 awesome children (and hopefully will have more) both of which I plan to see grow up God willing, and I'm not gonna go getting myself killed for a cause I can't believe in or stand for in the first place.

As far as my background, I'm 26 years old, college educated, and have been a LEO for 5 years now. I do have a heavy sense of duty, demonstrated by my service as a Field Training Officer, and also as a member of our Tactical Unit. And, while I would not participate in taking guns from people, I absolutely would not participate in the killing of my brothers with whom I have served for simply doing there job. I know many (especially here) would be right there quitting with me, but some, for any number of reasons would not or could not quit and do something else. That is no reason for them to be slaughtered. (I'm quite sure by the time a vast 'take away' would ever happen, society would have much bigger problems anyway, so who knows what all would be going on... I'm glad I've some family land to fall back on.)

Let us all hope and pray that a day like that never comes to us, but if it does, no doubt, that will be a very bad and depressing day.

 

[Al Norris]

Thanks, shooter_john.

This question is something that comes up on gun boards every 6 to 9 months. In the years I've been an active 2A (and generally gun) enthusiast, I've had a change of opinion. Much of that change has occurred as I become more familiar with law and how it works in our country. So, I have to ask you to consider what follows.

Part of that oath you swore, was also to uphold the laws, yes? So here's the moral dilemma: If such a law was passed, we must assume that it is a valid law, until the Courts decide it isn't. Therefore, my assumption is that you folks will obey the law as written and currently interpreted.

That's the dilemma. On the one hand, you (and many officers I personally know) would consider such a law to be constitutionally invalid. Yet, until a Court rules that such a law is invalid, you have a sworn duty to obey the law.

So I fully understand that you might want to turn in your badge. But if many like you turn in your badges, those that are left to uphold the law, may be of the type who would do so in an abusive manner. My crystal ball gets a bit murky at this point. But I think you see where it might go.

So I guess my question (a corollary to the original question) is by which principle would you stand?

 

[Bud Helms]

Now I hope that everyone that is not an LEO gets the idea. This question was not posed to you. The question is not, "What would you do if the law came to take your guns." The question is, "If the city/county/state/parish/country in which you serve decided to ban gun ownership, would you partake in confiscating guns from private citizens?"

Only LEOs, retired or active, need reply.

 

[shooter_john]

Antipitas...

I understand and agree with your post whole heartedly. It is quite a dilemma, and just the thought of the possibility of that scenario playing out SUCKS.

I would not quit with the act of passing such a law. As it stands, most LEO's (at least local level) are blessed with the ability to carry out their duties utilizing a great deal of discretion. I could certainly use my discretion in the enforement of such a law. It would be the ordered participation in take aways that would result in my departure. Would I ever consider returning to LE... Absolutely, I love my job, but I just couldn't do it if it required me to violate the rights that I know it is meant to protect. And like I said earlier, I don't really see AL on the front lines of dissarming it's citizens, so hopefully it will never be a choice I have to make. (Hopefully you unfortunate guys in Cali, NY, and the other communist states would fight and have that decision squashed before we'd suffer too bad here... We'll be doing all we can to help for sure.)

 

[TwoXForr]

I am in Law Enforcement, limited to be sure I only enforce and have jurisdicition of persons on Parole. But I believe in the case of something like this we would be "drafted" or mandated to assist the PA State Police. (Not saying I will always be with this agency but for now that is where I am)

What would I do, probably protest to the point of being relieved of duties enforcing that particular law, bring a grievance thru my union against carrying out a unjust order, basically everything within my power to thwart, throw into disarry and question the order to "get them guns". Would I quit, no, might I be fired or suspened maybe. Would I make a stand, yes of course in some fashion.

Why would I not quit, because I believe the good done by law enforcement far outweighs the bad, of course if we got to the point the goverment passes such a law I was asleep at the switch long before the world got to this point, and have failed as a US citizen, as we probably all have.

 

[Kraziken]

Perhaps it was the group that I worked with, but most of the officers I worked with were gun owners and advocates, before they became peace officers.

With that said, they would probably follow orders. On the other hand, there are lots of police officers, where their first exposure to firearms are on the job, and they treat it no more than a tool, and believe civilians with guns makes their job more difficult.

Cops are people, their views vary widely just as the normal population.

Most of my co-workers didn't think current gun legislation was for the better good.

 

[luvsasmith]

"To uphold the Constitution of the United States of America..."

That is the first line of the oath all officers in Ohio take. In light of that, no I would NEVER confiscate the guns of a law abiding citizen. Not to say I would not take a gun from someone who shot someone in defense, but they get the gun back when the investigation is over. My .02

 

[Sarge]

Absolutely, positively, HELL NO! I have made this clear to the two CLEO's I answer to for a commission. Both of them feel the same way.

 

[stevelyn]

The governing body pushing the issue would be in a dilemma as how to get my agency to cooperate in such a scheme.

I work for a small rural department. The chief and I are on the same sheet of music concerning such an order. There is no way such an order is going to be carried out here without a fight.

 

[GPossenti]

Thank you all for your responses, and thank you to Atipitas and Bud Helms for monitoring this thread.

Shooter_John brings up an interesting point that posed another question in my mind.

If a governing body decided they would confiscate all guns, what would I, a private citizen, do?

Is the moral culpability of the LEO enforcing the laws the same as the culpability of those who gave the orders or those who passed the laws?

On one hand, the LEO has great pressure to perform. The LEO's career is on the line. The thoughts through my mind go something like, "where will I find another job, how will I feed my family, pay for the house, etc." These are strong motivators to do what is ordered.

On the other hand, LEOs are also people. People with consciences. Aren't we supposed to do what we believe is right?

If a team LEOs with AR-15s or MP5s came to my front door, what would I do? The first thought is "out of my cold dead hands", but is this morally acceptable? Is my conscience okay with this? Am I willing to take someone's father, son, brother (and leave my own widow and fatherless children) for the sake of my right to bear arms? (the Constitution doesn't apply to dead people) After all, these LEOs are only following orders, right?

This is the tricky situation. The law says one thing, but the conscience says otherwise. Who is right? I'm not willing to make a decision either way until I'm in such a situation.

I have teetered on the edge of becoming an LEO through 3 or 4 recruitment sessions, but this very question of orders vs. conscience always keeps me from committing. (My cynicism toward our lawmakers and my libertarian convictions would make for a very short career as an LEO.)

I thank you all for your responses. If you have any other thoughts, feel free to post them. Thank you for keeping this a respectful thread in spite of any differences.

I pray that the day never comes where this question becomes a reality.

 

[Al Norris]

And on that note, thread closed.

Why? Because with the next question that GPossenti asks, this thread becomes a free-for-all, with all the internet posturing that was stricken from this thread to begin with.

That, and the thread becomes highly political.