Gun show dealers

C

Cougar

New member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think so...

There seems to be a misconception my the media about Gun Shows. They constantly bray on about the 'loophole' that exists about firearms sales at a gun show.

All licensed FFL dealers must keep records of all firearms that pass through their inventory. That is, every gun sale must be recorded on BATF 4473s, whether the sale is made in his retail shop or at a gun show. If I am not mistaken, even his personal collection must be treated as a retail sale and subject to BATF/FBI NICS proceedures.

At all of the gun shows I have attended here in Ohio, all FFL dealers have a stack of BATF form 4473s on the tables and use cellular phones to make calls to the FBI NICS system. These same dealers will also make NICS calls for any private sales at the show if the private seller so desires.

The only sales exempt from BATF/FBI NICS policy is the sale of a firearm from one private individual to another private individual. This type of sale is a very small minority of the sales at the gun shows I have attended.

I have tried to correct the media's error every time I hear about this supposed 'loophole' but to no avail. Is this because they are intentionally trying to mislead the public or are they really that stupid?

I need suggestions as to what I should do next.
 
J

Joseph

New member
North Carolina even prevents private sales at gun shows (or anywhere else) without a county sheriff's numbered permit to acquire a handgun. Several people outside the law on this one, I would imagine...
 
T

TheBluesMan

Moderator Emeritus
Cougar, Welcome to The Firing Line. We're glad to have you here and hope you stick around awhile. Pull up a chair and relax, you're among friends.

I have noticed the same thing about most people's misconceptions about gun show "loopholes." Even some gun owners I talk with are confused about the laws surrounding gun sales. I was talking to a guy the other day who said he wanted to buy a pistol from his neighbor, but wouldn't do it because the neighbor never registered the handgun with the state. Ohio *doesn't register* handguns, (per se) so of course it wasn't registered. This guy thought it would be illegal to buy from his neighbor and thought he would have to process the transaction through an FFL dealer.

I wonder what the figures are for the number of firearms sold by dealers at a gun show, versus the number of firearms sold by individuals? I'll be going to the Medina gun show this Saturday. I'll try to get a handle the rough percentage and report my findings back here.

Maybe I'll see you out in Medina this weekend.

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RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website


[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited February 19, 2000).]
 
P

Paul Revere

New member
Cougar...

The media's (and anti-gun politician's) attention to the gun show "loophole" is an interesting and purposeful misrepresentation of the facts. Since only a small segment of the public actually attend gun shows, the majority of the media's audience hasn't a clue what goes on there.

The misrepresentation is made to confuse its audience into believing that there is actually something "illegal" going on in this obscure world of "gun fanatics". You'll hear those sending this inaccurate message through a bait and switch manuever. They purposefully want to make people "think" its the gun dealers (FFLs) who are selling guns without doing a NICs background check at gun shows. This process gets people riled up about how criminals supposedly get their guns. What the media (and anti-gun politicians) aren't actually saying is that there are gun sales at gun shows which by-pass the NICs process that are perfectly LEGAL, and they want them stopped. These sales are the ones you mentioned between private parties.

Private individuals in the majority of states can either rent a display table or carry in weapons to sell or trade at most gun shows. Most of theses sales (or trades) are strictly between private parties, which are exempt from the process that FFLs are federally obligated. That being, filling out the 4473 form, the NICs background check, and subject to waiting periods for delivery.

The sale between private parties at gun shows is much like a sale between you and your wife's brother-in-law. Personal property changing hands between private individuals with a mutually agreed upon price. Nothing illegal about it at all, regardless of what some legislatures have concocted to limit or eliminate them.

Many gun owners today realize the danger of purchasing weapons through federally licensed dealers (FFLs). That being, an immediate registration of you and your firearm. Which by the way is quite illegal and universally covered up by the federal government. Therefore, folks who don't believe it's the federal government's business what they buy, sell, trade, or own (especially firearms protected by the 2nd Amendment), by-pass the FFL process and deal directly with other private indivuals like themselves. This is what the "loop hole" really is, but it's not actually a loop hole at all. It's a perfectly legal and PRIVATE transaction that the feds don't have their grubby stinking hands in. It's something that the federal government has no jurisdiction over, and its driving them nuts not being able to include all of these sales in the illegal federal registration system.
 
G

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Media shows a big gun show and then implies that the entire show is selling without any regulation.

At the TX shows, I've been at the private sales are few and far between. I see very few tables with private guns. You do see some
guys wandering around with signs.

One show did have a sign telling private sellers to check out the driver's license of the buy to see if it was in state and also to ask the buyer if they would be disqualified from owning a gun due to felonies and the like.

bye
 
J

Jeff Thomas

New member
Cougar, welcome again.

Paul covered this well. I too have come to believe that this misinformation is absolutely intentional. Some of the media has begun to draw a distinction between FFL and private sales, but it is clear that most of the media are busily grinding their axes on this subject.

Unfortunately, one of my disappointments from studying the RKBA has been to lose nearly all respect for the media. Previously, I simply thought much of the reporting was sloppy. Now I have come to the conclusion that even complete idiots can't be this sloppy.

They are lying. And, they are lying in support of an anti-self defense movement.

Keep trying to correct them. If enough people point out their lies, then perhaps you can at least get them to lie about something else ... ;)
 
P

Paul Revere

New member
Jeff Thomas...

Exactly. So many folks on our side continue to avoid words such as "conspiracy", because they think that if they utter these words, somehow they'll be labeled a "nut". Fact is, this comes as a result of the same propaganda that perpetuates the other LIES about issues surrounding freedom.

We all need to recognize that when a major news media lies, misrepresents, or even fabricates a story, that such an act is far from an error. These things are part of an intentional plan to constantly press the leftist message onto the American public. The results thereof, are to gain acceptance to these leftist and socialist ideologies.
 
E

Erik

New member
I bought my latest handgun at the Tanner Gun Show last weekend in Denver. As I walked toward my car a reporter who was outside asked me if I had bought my gun without a background check. I responded no and she was no longer interested in me.

I wonder who she finally wrote about? "Evil, un-PC future mass murderer buys semi auto revolver because of loophole."

:(

Erik
 
C

Cougar

New member
I just attended a gun show yesterday where the local politicians were trying to close it down. The Mayor and City Council members actuall WENT to the show. It must have been their first time at a gun show based on their observations:

Some were amazed that it was so popular.
They commented on the politeness of both the vendors and the public that attended.
They noted that many of the non-firearms vendors were the same upstanding local shop owners from their community.
They commented that shutting down the show would hurt some of their local constituents.

Gee, I guess gun people are good people, eh?

Maybe we should invite the local politicians to more shows across the country. Maybe they would make their own decisions instead of basing their decisions on the distorted views delivered to them by the media.
 
P

Paul Revere

New member
One of our most popular local shows here in northeast Illinois is the Lake County Gun Show. It is held at the Lake Couty Fairgrounds about once a month. As you can imagine, being only about 45 minutes from Chicago, it is always very crowded. The show is held in three separate buildings. At 8 am when the show opens to the public, there are usually 7-800 people waiting at the ticket window. By 9 am the show is so crowded that moving down the aisles is next to impossible.

The parking lots are usually filled to capacity by 10 am, and if I had to guess, I'd say there must be something in the order of 15,000 to 25,000 people in attendance, all paying $5 to get in.

One would think that any politician running for an important office would see this type of event as an excellent opportunity to gain support. Assuming that such a politician has a pro-gun/pro-freedom platform and background. Otherwise, it would be a public lynching.
 
D

dZ

New member
close the craft show loophole!
innocent children can be exposed to unregulated pottery!

dZ
 
G

Gunslinger

Moderator
As previously stated the media is delibrately misleading the public regarding the so called illegal sales that occur at shows.
Also as mentioned their is nothing in federal law prohibiting private sales. In the state of MO. there is no state statute prohibiting private sales. However last month the sheriff of Newton County (Joplin, MO.) announced that he was going to crack down on illegal sales. Last week my county, Greene, arrested an idividual for making a private sale to another individual and confiscated the gun. This was done knowing that the charges would be dropped (there is no law to charge with) and the gun would be returned (eventually). However it had the desired results. Vendors and walk ins alike were paranoid that they might be inconvenienced by an unsubstantuated "arrest". The promoters are talking of having no further shows in the county and the building owner is questioning whether he wants to allow more shows in the facility.

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.
 
O

Oatka

New member
It can only be considered a "loophole" if you intend to register every firearm in the country. That being the goal, then yes, unrecorded sales between individuals are a "loophole" big enough to drive a semi through.

Use this argument the next time some air-head repeats this propaganda.

Think about it - FFL dealers and pawnshops are covered. That leaves just the damned rabble trading amongst themselves.

Confiscation? What ARE you people talking about? We (liberals) aren't about to confiscate your guns. We can't. We don't know where they all are. Yet.

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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
W

weegee

New member
Jeff;

Read David Horowitz, esp. Radical Son and The politics of Bad Faith... He makes the case conclusively that today's leftists ARE the fascists.
 
J

John/az2

New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dZ:
close the craft show loophole!
innocent children can be exposed to unregulated pottery!

dZ[/quote]

DZ,

I've always thought that unregulated pottery was that porcelin (sp?) bowl in your bathroom!



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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
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