Gun Registration - sort of

[Bucksnort1]

So, yesterday, while enjoying the 113 degree Arizona weather, I began to think about gun registration or, maybe not. I've come to the conclusion we have gun registration. Let me explain. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

When I purchase a gun from a gun store, I complete the background check form. The store clerk calls NICS for clearance. Am I correct in saying the clerk gives NICS my name, social security number, type of gun and the gun serial number? If this is the case, and if NICS keeps this information, this is gun registration.

 

[Jim Watson]

The serial number does not go in on the NICS call.
You could only consider it registration if NICS retained a record of the check and could call the dealer and say "Comrade Bucksnort bought a handgun on August 22. Look it up and tell us what he got."
They are not SUPPOSED to retain that check but hey, you have to show your auditors you are earning your pay.

 

[Bucksnort1]

And of course, any guns purchased before NICS would not be on anyone's radar unless people begin snitching on others to the GESTAPO under a Red Flag law.

 

[44 AMP]

I've watched dealers make those calls numerous times. The only information about the gun given is "long gun" or "handgun". This is using the Federal system. Some states use their won system, and require more information.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The serial number does not go in on the NICS call.

Maybe not into NICS, but somebody has it somewhere. How else could it be that detectives will show up at your door to question you about a gun used in a crime that you sold off 20 years ago?

 

[USNRet93]

Maybe not into NICS, but somebody has it somewhere. How else could it be that detectives will show up at your door to question you about a gun used in a crime that you sold off 20 years ago?

Because the shop knows what they sold that day(probably), and to whom and the place giving permission to buy a gun knows the name and date of the BGC...

 

[Tom Servo]

Maybe not into NICS, but somebody has it somewhere.

Make, model, and serial # are not divulged in the NICS check, but the 4473 that the dealer keeps on file does have that information.

If a gun is traced, the ATF contacts the manufacturer, who directs them to the distributor, who directs them to the dealer. Then the form can be retrieved from the dealer.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Right, so if you can be tracked down for a given gun, there is a form of gun registration in place. It may be inefficient and/or flawed, but it exists.

 

[Bucksnort1]

Tom Servo, and that form I believe stays with the gun shop for two or three years and is then can be destroyed.

 

[reynolds357]

. Tom Servo, and that form I believe stays with the gun shop for two or three years and is then can be destroyed.

20 years.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

. Tom Servo, and that form I believe stays with the gun shop for two or three years and is then can be destroyed.

20 years.

And if the FFL retires or otherwise goes out of business before those 20 years have elapsed, his 4473s are turned over to the BATFE.

 

[T. O'Heir]

All those unelected civil servant inspired/required ATF forms constitute defacto registration with no legislation to back it up. It's how they knew who had sold .223 rifles when those criminals were shooting up the DC area.
It's also why the likes of The Brandy Bunch want 'em required at gun shows, etc.

 

[JohnBoy-53]

Make, model, and serial # are not divulged in the NICS check, but the 4473 that the dealer keeps on file does have that information.

If a gun is traced, the ATF contacts the manufacturer, who directs them to the distributor, who directs them to the dealer. Then the form can be retrieved from the dealer.

This is the correct answer. I handled a trace request from ATF just this week.

 

[Tom Servo]

20 years.

That's the letter of the law. However, most dealers aren't around that long, and when they go out of business, that all gets sent off to the ATF.

Even dealers who are in business that long are reluctant to destroy them.

 

[dogtown tom]

Bucksnort1 …...When I purchase a gun from a gun store, I complete the background check form.

Its not a background check form, its a Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record. While some of the information is reported during your background check that is not the purpose of the form.

The store clerk calls NICS for clearance. Am I correct in saying the clerk gives NICS my name, social security number, type of gun and the gun serial number? If this is the case, and if NICS keeps this information, this is gun registration.

It depends......where are you buying the firearm?
If in Arizona, then your dealer will contact the FBI NICS directly. Only your personally information and type of firearm (handgun/long gun/other) is given to the FBI. No model/caliber/serial# is reported.
If in Colorado, then the CO dealer will contact a Colorado state agency who performs the background check through NICS. Colorado may ask the dealer for additional information on the firearm beyond type.

A NICS background check isn't registration by a long shot. True gun registration requires notifying the government about every transfer of possession. The Form 4473/NICS does not.

 

[dogtown tom]

Double Naught Spy

Quote:
The serial number does not go in on the NICS call.

Maybe not into NICS, but somebody has it somewhere. How else could it be that detectives will show up at your door to question you about a gun used in a crime that you sold off 20 years ago?

When ATF traces a firearm they start with the manufacturer>distributor>dealer>first buyer/transferee. If the first buyer sold the gun and has no record of the buyer then the trace is over. Perfectly legal and no violation of federal law.

How do they know who the first buyer/transferee was? The Form 4473 you filled out. If you bought a used firearm from a licensed dealer its likely they have no way of tracking you down.

***and if you sold that gun twenty years ago? That 4473 may no longer exist. FFL's are allowed to destroy 4473's after they turn 20. If the FFL went out of business, his bound book and 4473's are returned to ATF who stores them in shipping containers in their parking lot.

 

[dogtown tom]

Double Naught Spy Right, so if you can be tracked down for a given gun, there is a form of gun registration in place. It may be inefficient and/or flawed, but it exists.

A record of sale is not registration. Want to know what real gun registration is, just ask our forum members that have to actually register their firearms.

 

[dogtown tom]

T. O'Heir All those unelected civil servant inspired/required ATF forms constitute defacto registration with no legislation to back it up.

All those "unelected civil servant inspired/required ATF forms" ARE REQUIRED due to federal law. Namely the Gun Control Act and National Firearms Act.

It's how they knew who had sold .223 rifles when those criminals were shooting up the DC area.

The Bushmaster AR recovered during the arrest of Malvo and Muhammad WAS STOLEN. Who stole it, whether it was bough by Muhammad is not known.

It's also why the likes of The Brandy Bunch want 'em required at gun shows, etc.

Brady, not Brandy.

 

[zxcvbob]

Friend of mine in Louisiana used to be a FFL. About the time he got tired of it, the shed he worked out of burned down. Not much was lost; mainly just his bound book, 4473's, etc.

 

[44 AMP]

When ATF traces a firearm they start with the manufacturer>distributor>dealer>first buyer/transferee.

true enough, but there is actually another step that has to happen first.

They have to HAVE the gun they want to trace. Or, at least have the make, model and serial number, FIRST.

There is no system that lets the cops go to the ATF (or anybody else) and say "find all the guns that Joe Sixpack bought". Cannot be done.

They have to start with a gun. A specific individual firearm, recovered during an investigation. THEN they can go through the steps Dogtown Tom listed.

Without having a gun to begin with, there can be no trace. (via FFL records)

Now, some states DO have a system, and it IS registration, so they can tell an investigator something, but the system is limited to those guns, and people IN it.

New York state (for example) has a pistol permit system that tracks INDIVIDUAL guns, by make, caliber, barrel length and serial number.
An investigator can go to the state of NY and say, "tell me what pistols Joe Sixpack (SSN) owns, and the state can tell him. They can't tell him squat about rifles or shotguns, only pistols, because of the pistol permit system they use.

My home state has a concealed pistol license, but doesn't track individual guns. That same investigator asking the same question of them would be told "we have no clue (go do your own legwork ).