gun finishes 101...

[5whiskey]

This isn't the normal question for gun finishes, I've searched the forum archives and have enough experiance to sort of know what's going on with this one. I am traversing decently enough in the functional level of begginer gunsmithing, well with bolt guns anyway. What I have yet to really get right is refinishing a gun. Of course all I have tried was cold blue but I am convinced that there is just no way to get my desired results from that. Anywho...

1. As for all of the enamel finishes, or moly coats or whatever, it is most often recommended to parkerize the metal first for maximum adhesion. Can you use one of these lacqoer (yeah spelled it wrong) type products without parkerizing?

2. Blueing, I understand most of this process. What does everyone else use for blueing tanks? I'm thinking of welding up a rig for myself, something just right for a long gun barrel so I won't have to use gallons upon gallons of solution.

3. Parkerizing, theres no prob with using same tanks for parking and blueing (obviously not at the same time) right? Also I've been told that match barrels should not be parked as it changes structure of the metal. Well obviously the bore shouldn't be parked so why doew it matter?

4. Bead blasting, can sand blasting be used as a substitute for this in certain applications?

5. Etching, I hope to get into some advanced custom work in the future, what can be used to inlay etching with a seperate color than the rest of the gun finish?

My deal is I'm 26 and hopefully have a long life and a lot of projects ahead of me, so expense is understood as necassary. I am also 26 and NOT RICH so money is an issue, so I'm trying to go as economical as possible. Any way to rig up tanks economically would help, and also any advice or knowledge to be shared as well.

Thanks and God bless.
Joey

 

[Scorch]

1. Can you use one of these lacqoer (yeah spelled it wrong) type products without parkerizing? Yes, but you have to prep the metal for best adhesion, either by bead blasting or sand blasting. Parkerizing just gives you some rust resistance under the finish.

2. I'm thinking of welding up a rig for myself, something just right for a long gun barrel so I won't have to use gallons upon gallons of solution. Go for it. But before you do, look at the Brownells website and ask yourself if you can do it all for the price they seell complete bluing tank setups for.

3. Parkerizing, theres no prob with using same tanks for parking and blueing (obviously not at the same time) right? Also I've been told that match barrels should not be parked as it changes structure of the metal. Well obviously the bore shouldn't be parked so why doew it matter? Once you use tanks for blueing, you will have gallons of highly caustic salt solutions to be disposed of. Then you would totally acid etch the tanks so you an use them for parkerizing. OK. I have never heard that you should not parkerize match guns, since you are supposed to plug the bore anyway.

4. Bead blasting, can sand blasting be used as a substitute for this in certain applications? Yes, sand blasting can be used as a substitute for bead blasting as long as you don't care about the consistency of the finish from one part to the next.

5. Etching, I hope to get into some advanced custom work in the future, what can be used to inlay etching with a seperate color than the rest of the gun finish? If you are talking about gold leaf or silver inlaying, it is inlaid directly into engraving. For a low-budget approach, a colored enamel is used to color engraved areas of firearms to highlight the engraving, but looks not at all like inlay work.

 

[5whiskey]

Hey thanks for the answers scorch...

Soooo, probably should use different tank for blue and parkerizing from what I read. Not that it can't be done it would just be a pain to use the same tank. I have had an idea of just using sleeves of PVC for the actual blue and parking, and just submersing that into vat of boiling water. Won't matter what the vat is made of as solution doesn't touch it, and I can just make 2 seperate PVC sleeves for the actual solution. I can roll the pvc sleeve to move the point of contact for the barrel or action, or in theory anyway. I would have to check this out with dyed water and a thermometer to make sure the sleeve doesn't leak in or out and to make sure it will hold the temp consistantly. If PVC doesn't tranfer enough heat quick enough I've thought of using pipe (stainless pipe can be found for not too much) but by the time I machine the ends for fittings it may would be cheaper just to go with one from brownells. If I can go with the pvc sleeve though I can actually do it pretty economically. I have an old 35 gallon drum to use as the vat, and I've already got burners from old tobacco barns. I know it sounds like a lot of trouble but everything is free via scavaging except for making the pvc sleeves.

Maybe I'm totally off the wall in my thinking for that little design, thats why I post here. Would like to bounce it off others that know more. Also on the sandblasting, why would the finish differ with each part? Is it consistancies with metal, how it's heat treated, and all that other stuff? Is bead blasting much more trouble than sand blasting? Is there gonna be a night and day difference in the finish from part to part, or just subtle.

Sorry to fire off so many questions but trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks again.

 

[Scorch]

The idea of removable sleeves might work if you can find one that is open to the air (for expansion during boiling), and made of something that can resist a pH 14 solution of NaOH, nickel salts, and other metallic salts at 290 degrees F for the 10-15 minutes it takes to get a good blue. I don't think PVC is the answer. Regular bluing tanks are cheap and work well. Big problem for hobbyists is the cost of bluing salts and disposing of the salts after use (HazMat).

Sandblasting gives uneven finish on hard metals due to the grains of sand breaking every time they hit the metal. You could sandblast with new media in a large enough cabinet so that the sand hardly ever got used twice, and the finish would be fairly even. I used to blast in a cabinet, and I would put some new sand in right at the beginning and by the time I had gone over the gun several times the finish was pretty even and good. So, the differences between sandblasting and bead blasting or shot peening are noticeable, but it makes very little difference for most purposes. Bead blasting uses little balls of glass instead of sand (or in the case of shot peening, metal balls), and they don't break down anywhere near as fast. Bead blasting cabinets are more expensive than sand blasting cabinets (controlling the glass particles is important), and shot peening cabinets even more so because they are made of steel (you can imagine the effect of little steel balls on most plywood sandblasting cabinets).

 

[jamesl]

Trust me when I say this if you do decide to blue with hot salt just buy the tanks from brownells and get enough of them for all the processes you plan to do. Hot salts are not fun to work with but give a great finish with little labor. I don't think PVC will work and you my end up ruining a batch of hot salts which is about a $130 if you are not a dealer and yes a batch will use almost all of the 40lb pail. If you haven't already done it give brownells a call and ask them for the bluing instuctions they will be very helpful and may save you some money in buying equipment. I've also done alot of the paint on finishes and key metal prep, if done correctly you don't need to parkerize.

 

[James K]

You can't use just one or two tanks. You need a tank for the degreaser, one for the bluing solution, and one for the after dip (water displacing oil). In theory you could dump the degreaser and then fill up with the dip, but that is wasting the whole tank every time you do a job.

Also, the bluing salts and the after dip are hazardous waste (especially the bluing salts) so you have to have some legal means of disposing of them. Usually the tanks are just left set up and the solutions added to as needed, but sometimes you have to start over and then you have a disposal problem.

And with the salts watch the fumes and any splashing. Wear a heavy rubber apron, rubber boots, a face shield (not just goggles) and a rubber cap. Those salts can really ruin your complexion if they splash on you.

Setting up for hot tank bluing is not easy or cheap. It is (IMO) not worth it unless you intend to go into the business in a big way. Otherwise, sending the stuff off for bluing is a lot simpler and, in the long run, cheaper.

Jim

 

[Metaloy Industries]

Most here are correct. You need to use mild carbon steel for bluing tanks, not stainless. The stainless will react with the blue salts and your bluing will turn out very bad. You need to use stainless steel tanks for parkerizing due to the build up of sludge. Also you will want to use either electric heaters or propane fired burners for the blueing. For parkerizing you use indirect heat like a steam coil in the solution itself.

You really don't want to do this on a hobby basis. It is a big pain in the arse. Trust me.

 

[5whiskey]

Thanks for the good 411. From what I see/read, I'm thinking blueing won't be worth it for me so I'll stick to a little more economical means.

I am starting on hobby gunsmithing but I may want to pursue it as a source of extra income one day. Please, no one give me the lecture, I know it isn't fun or glamorous. I plan on messing up my own guns for many years before I plan on working on someone elses, so that is far in the future.

I may look at getting set up to parkerize in the future, that appears to be economically doable. Not cheap I know but not as bad as blueing. Thanks again for the good knowledge.